Cleric / Wizard

[rgard]

I don't think Precocious Apprentice fills the "being able to cast 2nd level spells" requirement, since the feat itself mentions you don't have that ability.

Whether Precocious Apprentice is a valid way to enter a theurge prc or not has been debated ad nauseum on just about every D&D message board in existence.

I used to take the position that it didn't quality the pc for early entry, but I've seen (and played) enough theurge types that I don't see what the harm would be in allowing it.

Unless you are using Ur-Priest as your divine half of the theurge progression, the wizard/cleric, wizard/druid, etc advancement really lags behind the single class casters when it comes to highest level spells available to cast. I do understand that is the draw back of progressing in two classes, but it almost makes the theurge unpalatable.

In my campaign, I do let the players use Precocious Apprentice as early entry.

 

[Gray Lensman]

What we have is an idea for the clerics of each god to possibly have different orders.

In the case of Boccob - a Priestly Order (Good), A Protective Order (Nuetral) used as temple guards and messengers and a Trickster Order (Chaotic)

Clerics of Boccob can't choose the War domain..

In this campaign, if they are a cleric of the Protective order they can

I don't think Precocious Apprentice fills the "being able to cast 2nd level spells" requirement, since the feat itself mentions you don't have that ability.

After reading it I agree, and a big THANKX for the link, I am sure that I will get a lot out of that.

 

[Gray Lensman]

Okay, Tommorrow I am going to the library to look up old issues of Dragon Magazine.

Can anyone tell me the issue # range that mostly covered edition 3.5?

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

this question was asked a few days ago in This Thread.

 

[Gray Lensman]

Thanks, Mr. Tiger Sir, I know your tummy is rumbling but don't eat me.

Guess I gots a lots a readin ta doo

 

[scott2978]

Hi Gray,

I'm building a Cleric/Wiz for a 3.5 game too, and here's what I came up with:

Taking Mystic Theurge, your HD will be 1d4. If you plan to take all 10, make CON a priority.

Also keep this in mind: Arcane Spell Failure! If you plan to cast a lot of those Wiz spells, you'll be needing some way to soften or negate that, preferably using magic, so take Mage Armor and Shield as 1st level spells.

I put a lot of research into the best way to break into MT, and using the Precocious Apprentice feat isn't the best way IMHO. However, choosing the Spell Domain from Spell Compendium does actually allow you to cast ANY wizard spell of level 1 - 5 using the domain spells Anyspell (lesser in level 3 and greater in level 6) which are specifically described as Arcane spells, and if you need more justification you can take the Domain Spontanaeity feat to be able to cast as many Wiz spells as you can memorize of up to 2nd level using the Anyspell spell.

Incidentally, if all you really want is to be able to cast a few Wiz spells, the above Spell domain works great and costs you very little. It also gives you +2 to Concentration and Spellcraft.

On the other hand, if you want to be mostly arcane but cast a few Cleric spells (healing perhaps?) then take the Arcane Desciple feat from Complete Arcane. You can choose a cleric domain and add all those spells to your spell list, choosing to memorize one of those per spell level in one of your normal spell slots. You use Wis to cast these cleric spells however so you can't dump Wis with this option, but you can cast healing spells as arcane wiz spells, so make your arcane wand of cure light, or an arcane scroll of healing spells etc.

As for races, take a look at the anthropomorphic animal races in Savage Species. Most of them take a hit to CHA but give you a nice bonus to WIS. If you choose one that's small size, you can dump the hit die of Humanoid and instead take a class level, making an EL0 1HD small anthro a viable level 1 PC. I personally would consider Toad, Owl or Bat. The Anthropomorphic Owl race is small (+1 size bonus on attacks and AC) gets 2 points of Natural Armor, +8 racial bonus to Hide and +14 racial bonus to move silently (and don't forget your size bonus to hide as well), 60' darkvision, low-light vision, free Weapon Finesse feat to use with it's 1d8 talon attack, and +4 DEX, +6 Wisdom -2 CHA. The one glaring downside of this race is it's very, very slow movement: 10' on land and 20' flying (oh yeah it has a Fly speed). So make yourself a magic item of continuous Expeditious Retreat and your land move becomes 40' while you can use your Fly speed to avoid falling damage.

Scott2978

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Thanks, Mr. Tiger Sir, I know your tummy is rumbling but don't eat me.

Guess I gots a lots a readin ta doo

You're welcome, I'm all out of catchup so I can't eat any people right now.
Happy Reading!

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

However, choosing the Spell Domain from Spell Compendium does actually allow you to cast ANY wizard spell of level 1 - 5 using the domain spells Anyspell (lesser in level 3 and greater in level 6) which are specifically described as Arcane spells, and if you need more justification you can take the Domain Spontanaeity feat to be able to cast as many Wiz spells as you can memorize of up to 2nd level using the Anyspell spell.

Oh... I'm gunna look into the mechanics of that and possibly swipe it for myself for any future builds.

take the Arcane Desciple feat from Complete Arcane. You can choose a cleric domain and add all those spells to your spell list, choosing to memorize one of those per spell level in one of your normal spell slots. You use Wis to cast these cleric spells however so you can't dump Wis with this option, but you can cast healing spells as arcane wiz spells, so make your arcane wand of cure light, or an arcane scroll of healing spells etc.

I think those are still considered arcane spells, so won't qualify for Mystic Theurge PrC, are you suggesting he do this as a straight Wizard and skip the PrC altogether? 'Cause that could work, if as you said he's only looking for a few cleric-type spells.

[MENTION=6680243]Gray Lensman[/MENTION], I know you've designed this thread specifically to work on a Wizard/Cleric build. However, the spirit of what it appears you are trying to make is a Arcane Caster + Divine Caster + Combatant. I'd like to recommend that there are other builds besides Wizard/Cleric/Mystic Theurge that can accomplish this. Fochlucan Lyrist has build help Here. The Chameleon PrC can sort of do this, but without access to spells above level 6.

No doubt other people here could offer different build suggestions. I hear Urpriest as a PrC can do some crazy things.

IF you're set on the Wizard/Cleric build, then disregard the last two paragraphs.

 

[Tharkon]

I looked it up again and the minimum level for prestige class access is 5th indeed, not 6th (DMG2, page 205). Oddly that page gives the Assasin as an example class available at 5th level, even though its available at 6th.

As for Anyspell, if I want to go really literal, the requirement is spells (plural).

But basically its just not what the Mystic Theurge (or any prestige class) means by requiring the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.

It's all up to the DM though, see rule 1.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

I looked it up again and the minimum level for prestige class access is 5th indeed, not 6th (DMG2, page 205). Oddly that page gives the Assasin as an example class available at 5th level, even though its available at 6th.

Hmmm.. Yeah. 8 ranks in skills is pretty clearly access level 6. Rogue can't have 8 ranks in Hide and Move Silently before level 5.

The wording of DMG II, page 205 reads,
"No prestige class should be attainable by a character lower than 5th level."

However, the wording of the Master Specialist PrC in Complete Mage, page 70, reads,
"The best way to become a master specialist is to be a specialist wizard and take 1st level in the prestige class as your 4th character level. Then you can advance through all ten levels of the class and, after completing it at 13th level, either return to wizard or move on to another prestige class such as archmage."

Also, the PrC Stoneblessed in Races of Stone, p.124, has a "Behind the Curtain" box stating,
"The requirements for this prestige class are deliberately set lower than normal for a prestige class. A character can qualify for this class as early as 2nd level, take her 3rd character level in stoneblessed, and finish progressing through the class by the time she reaches 5th level."

And so, we have clear contradiction between two official sources. DMG II was printed in June 2005, while Complete Mage was printed October, 2006. If newer trumps older, than Master Specialist provides a precedent to overrule the DMG II wording.

Races of Stone was published in August 2004, before the PHB II, but can be argued as an exception because it has a specific disclaimer. Regardless, it also provides a precedent for exceptions to the PHB II ruling.

Ugh, I hate Rules Lawyers, and I've become one. I humbly apologize!