Cleric-y Fighters (or Fighter-y Clerics)

[Herschel]

I think most people on this board simply do not understand how overwhelming the 1e (post UA)/2e's offensive advantage actually was, nor that by the upper levels Fighters were the best character defensively, across the board (saves, AC, hp, you name it). And they *still* were considered an inferior class.

Yes, Unearthed Arcana really changed the game, more so than the 3.0 to 3.5 or 4E to Essentials shifts.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Well ... one of them just gets up in the morning and fights. The other one has to perform a bit of prayer each morning in order to get his fighting ability.

Reasonable differentiation is required, methinks. Bonuses to attack, heavy armor and martial weapons restricted to fighter-y types will do much of it. The cleric's divine spellcasting is a pretty significant difference. The key is to keep one from outshining the other -- and I'm looking at the cleric ... pretty hard for a fighter to out-cleric the cleric.

 

[bganon]

Yeah, this is my single greatest concern from the playtest. Heavy armor being borked, starting HP being a bit high - those are just numeric problems that can be dealt with.

But the clerics seem to tread way too much on other classes' shtick. Sure, the Moradin cleric doesn't dish out fighter damage... until he casts his self-buffs and uses smites. And nearly all his spells are self-buffs. If he wants to be, he can be as good as a fighter for a minute or two each day, and close to as good for an hour. And if he doesn't want to, he can heal and blast undead.

Meanwhile, the Pelor cleric gets to be a radiant blaster, dishing out ranged damage sort of like a wizard except without the crappy AC or spell disruption worries. The wizard at least seems to have a serious versatility advantage, but I'm not sure that it's enough.

The poor fighter, though... why would anyone play one? A cleric of Moradin with the Slayer theme and a two-handed weapon could decide on-the-fly whether he wants to dish out damage like a fighter or heal like a cleric. The fighter gets to choose whether to fight like a buffed-up cleric, or... well that's his only choice, actually. Blah.

 

[IanB]

Yeah, this is my single greatest concern from the playtest. Heavy armor being borked, starting HP being a bit high - those are just numeric problems that can be dealt with.

But the clerics seem to tread way too much on other classes' shtick. Sure, the Moradin cleric doesn't dish out fighter damage... until he casts his self-buffs and uses smites. And nearly all his spells are self-buffs. If he wants to be, he can be as good as a fighter for a minute or two each day, and close to as good for an hour. And if he doesn't want to, he can heal and blast undead.

Meanwhile, the Pelor cleric gets to be a radiant blaster, dishing out ranged damage sort of like a wizard except without the crappy AC or spell disruption worries. The wizard at least seems to have a serious versatility advantage, but I'm not sure that it's enough.

The poor fighter, though... why would anyone play one? A cleric of Moradin with the Slayer theme and a two-handed weapon could decide on-the-fly whether he wants to dish out damage like a fighter or heal like a cleric. The fighter gets to choose whether to fight like a buffed-up cleric, or... well that's his only choice, actually. Blah.

We have no indication that the cleric of Moradin will be able to use a two-handed weapon proficiently, do we? It only gets basic weapons + warhammer on the character sheet.

Again it seems to me like people are leaping to a lot of unsubstantiated conclusions about what class capabilities will be in the final version, from an early version of playtesting that isn't meant to test those particular topics, but is just meant to test the basic resolution systems of the game.

 

[Kraydak]

We have no indication that the cleric of Moradin will be able to use a two-handed weapon proficiently, do we? It only gets basic weapons + warhammer on the character sheet.

Again it seems to me like people are leaping to a lot of unsubstantiated conclusions about what class capabilities will be in the final version, from an early version of playtesting that isn't meant to test those particular topics, but is just meant to test the basic resolution systems of the game.

No, it really is an important deal. In 1e, Cleric had NO self combat buffs. None. At, say, 9th level, a Fighter had 2 attack/round (cleric, 1), at +8 to hit over an equally equipped cleric, doing d8+12 vs d6+5. Against small enemy hit point totals. And even then they weren't viewed as a powerful class.

We have experience at how powerful a Fighter has to be. A lot, 30+ odd years. And what we are seeing is *no where near* the needed value.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No, it really is an important deal. In 1e, Cleric had NO self combat buffs. None. At, say, 9th level, a Fighter had 2 attack/round (cleric, 1), at +8 to hit over an equally equipped cleric, doing d8+12 vs d6+5. Against small enemy hit point totals. And even then they weren't viewed as a powerful class.

We have experience at how powerful a Fighter has to be. A lot, 30+ odd years. And what we are seeing is *no where near* the needed value.

Nope, the fighter i ADnD did its job well enough.

I however believe he needs more out of combat presence. AdnD was not so bad here... he at least got his own army...

But I guess, it is just impossible to make the fighter "non-inferior". But not everyone wants to be gandalf. and as long, as the fighter is doing his job so good, that he can have his spotlight, and there are monsters and enemies and situations, where magic just won´t help, the game will be fine.