D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[AverageCitizen]

The entire concepts of willpower and devotion should revolve around Charisma, not Wisdom. Charisma is what enables a priest to emulate and draw power from the deities they serve. Wisdom is fundamentally about emotional maturity and the application of reason, which has little to do with piety and is the antithesis of dogma. Organized religion (regardless of its truth or lack of) is largely based on authority, and this is even more true in most D&D religions.

There is a lot of baggage, here. I read on and saw you got into it with Celebrim about this, but I am back here at the OP because although I agree that this has assumptions based in real world religions I don't agree with everything else he said.

You are claiming you didn't say anything about real-world religion, but the latter 2/3 of that paragraph are about real-world religion and they are not flattering.

That aside, I tried to explain why I think Wisdom fits Clerics but don't think it is possible to unpack this without discussing real world religion and breaking the rules, so I deleted it. I think the thread as it is should be moved to the no-rules forum just for the sake of consistency.

 

[Einlanzer0]

There is a lot of baggage, here. I read on and saw you got into it with Celebrim about this, but I am back here at the OP because although I agree that this has assumptions based in real world religions I don't agree with everything else he said.

You are claiming you didn't say anything about real-world religion, but the latter 2/3 of that paragraph are about real-world religion and they are not flattering.

That aside, I tried to explain why I think Wisdom fits Clerics but don't think it is possible to unpack this without discussing real world religion and breaking the rules, so I deleted it. I think the thread as it is should be moved to the no-rules forum just for the sake of consistency.

Wisdom fits for certain kinds of clerics. Where I'm coming from is that it doesn't fit the type of cleric I imagine the iconic D&D cleric to represent. And I will continue to argue that if we assume a cleric's main goal is spreading their faith, charisma is by far the more appropriate ability to represent their effectiveness. I think some people that are arguing in favor of wisdom conceptualize the staple D&D cleric as the non-proselytizing sort, which is totally fine, I just don't think it's suggested well at least in older materials.

 

[Azzy]

they are modeled almost entirely from crusaders of medieval Christianity.

Except the really unnoticeable part that produces miracles like saints, prophets, and such, or the part that turns undead like up-powered vampire hunters from fiction.

Besides, the medieval knightly orders that clerics "resemble" aren't exactly charismatic spreaders of the faith—they're more like thuggish murderers of infidels.

 

[Azzy]

Wisdom fits for certain kinds of clerics. Where I'm coming from is that it doesn't fit the type of cleric I imagine the iconic D&D cleric to represent.

Which is cool and all, but apparently it fit the type of cleric that Gygax and Arneson imagined the iconic D&D cleric to represent

And I will continue to argue that if we assume a cleric's main goal is spreading their faith, charisma is by far the more appropriate ability to represent their effectiveness.

Not all of us are assuming that, though.

I think some people that are arguing in favor of wisdom conceptualize the staple D&D cleric as the non-proselytizing sort, which is totally fine, I just don't think it's suggested well at least in older materials.

On the other hand, I don't think that the older materials (outside of maybe some setting-specific materials) really suggests that the staple D&D cleric as the proselytizing sort.

 

[Fanaelialae]

And I will continue to argue that if we assume a cleric's main goal is spreading their faith, charisma is by far the more appropriate ability to represent their effectiveness..

I think that's a false assumption for many settings. Certainly in FR, since Ao decreed that gods would derive power from worshipers during the Time of Troubles, that might hold water. Unless you're playing pre-Tot, in which case it doesn't.

But what about Mystara? I can't recall ever reading anything about the Immortals being dependent on worshipers.

What about Krynn (Dragonlance)? The gods of that world turned their backs on their worshipers for hundreds of years, almost entirely wiping out any belief in them. If they derived power from worshipers, that would be borderline suicidal. I certainly can't see the evil gods agreeing to such a thing.

There are plenty of settings where a cleric's primary goal likely isn't spreading their faith, but rather changing the world according to the ideals of the deity they serve.

 

[pemerton]

D&D clerics are typically of the crusading, evangelizing warpriest sort, as opposed to the calm, enlightened spiritual leader sort, so Charisma makes much more thematic sense than wisdom does. If D&D clerics were thematically represented to be more like how Monks are, Wisdom would make some sense.

Charisma is not really "ability to interact with others", it just bleeds into that. Fundamentally, it's about force of will and having a commanding presence. This is why it makes more sense for clerics.

These are the points that I took from the OP, and that I agree with.

CHA makes sense for the warpriest/crusader/paladin type. WIS makes sense for the hermit/oracle/enlightenment type. In terms of D&D classes, the traditional cleric (based on the orders of the crusading knights, per Gygax's PHB) and the traditional paladin fit the former. I also think that CHA can make sense for the category of "naive but sincere" preachers and leaders, which Joan of Arc and St Francis can both serve as examples of - but D&D doesn't really have a class for St Francis, in part because of his eschewal of violence.

In D&D terms, I think the monk, the druid, the 4e invoker, the OA wu jen and probably the OA shukenja (who has a very strong divination flavour) fit the latter. They don't receive and then charismatically communicate revelations; rather, they intuit the nature of reality, and bring this knowledge back to the rest of the world.

As with any system of categories, there will be borderline cases. St John of the Cross and St Teresa of Avila - and even St Francis, for that matter - might be seen as straddling the two categories. And originally druids needed CHA as well as WIS. But I still think the OP makes a good point.

 

[pemerton]

There are plenty of settings where a cleric's primary goal likely isn't spreading their faith, but rather changing the world according to the ideals of the deity they serve.

I don't think that the older materials (outside of maybe some setting-specific materials) really suggests that the staple D&D cleric as the proselytizing sort.

I think proselytism is a red herring, and is drawing too much on a "used car salesman" model of CHA.

I think the contrast is between receiving, and then communicating or acting with conviction upon, a revelation; vs intuiting the nature of the world.

I don't know if [MENTION=6788934]Einlanzer0[/MENTION] would draw the boundaries exactly in this way, or exactly where I have in my posts in this thread, but s/he (? sorry, don't know) has made it clear that no general claim is being made about the nature of religion or of religious devotion, even in the context of D&D, but is rather observing something about the particular nature of the traditional, highly militarised, miracle-working D&D cleric.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I think the contrast is between receiving, and then communicating or acting with conviction upon, a revelation; vs intuiting the nature of the world.

This is the core of where we differ in opinion, I think. You see acting with conviction upon a deity's command as being Charisma, but I think it is Wisdom.

As I see it, a high Charisma / low Wisdom character might project conviction and confidence, but would internally be lacking thereof.

Whereas a high Wisdom / low Charisma character might not be able to project conviction or confidence, but would in fact be solid at his core.

This is not only because willpower has been associated with Wisdom by tradition. IMO, you cannot truly have conviction or confidence until you know yourself, and that requires wisdom. I've known several people who I'd describe as highly charismatic who, once I peeled the veneer, I found to be quite insecure. Conversely, while the people who I consider wise typically have a degree of humility to them, I don't consider any of them to lack for self esteem. IME, of course.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Wisdom is a bundle of separate ideas, but so are all the different attributes.

The rest of them are pretty coherent compared with Wisdom, which covers: spotting things, resisting mental attacks, identifying herbs, medicinal practices, handling animals, tracking things, hunting game, finding water and predicting the weather.

But as it pertains to clerics, what wisdom primarily represents is very clear, and its importance to clerics and all the related 'spiritual' classes is equally clear.

Yes, to quote one of the earlier OD&D editions:
"Wisdom acts as an experience booster for clerics, serving in no way to help them in either learning or knowing spells. All cleric spells are considered as "divinely" given and as such a cleric with a wisdom factor of 3 would know all of the spells as well as would a cleric with an 18 wisdom factor."

So why then should their spell casting ability be based on Wisdom? Because if intelligence represents knowing something, then wisdom represents being able to act on what you know and believe.

... umm. So wizards don't actually cast spells unless they have a high wisdom too? Do fighters not fight without a high wisdom? This isn't a stance borne out by the rules. Wisdom is listed as being insight and perception, then defined by the rules as being insight, perception, resisting mind affecting spells and casting some divine spells in some sort of nebulous style.

My point was that for all spellcasters, "which casting stat I use" should primarily be a character choice, not something set by class. I can imagine a bookish cleric who casts divine spells through his strict adherence to religious rules and ceremonies. I can imagine a wizard who casts arcane spells by overriding reality with his will. I can imagine a bard who casts spells through an uncanny insight into the way the world works.

Knowledge: Religion would be knowing a lot about the history, practices, enemies of many different faiths, with a bit of planar lore thrown in as well. Being good at knowing that seems like something Intelligence would determine. Being good at that doesn't strike me as something that would determine the power behind your god's spells that you channel though.

My point was that survival, animal handling, medicine and herbalism are all lumped into wisdom, not because they necessarily belong there, but simply because it was the stat that rangers, druids and clerics use. It surprises me that religious knowledge wasn't thrown in there with medicine and herbalism as "things that clerics should know".

As to perceiving things, I generally look upon it as wisdom being not the ability to see something, but the ability to recognize something that you do see as amiss or worthy of notice and attention.

...which is explicitly listed as investigation, an intelligence skill.

 

[Jabborwacky]

Clerics were originally wis and cha based. Cha was used for their supernatural abilities and wis specifically for their spells. I'm of the opinion it would be better to have a separate spell casting stat used for all divine casters and another for all arcane casters. Or just one magic power stat period. Then maybe a separate accuracy stat for attacks and everything would start to be a bit less crunchy.