D&D 5E Clerics and Wisdom

[Tectuktitlay]

"By virtue of your race, your character can speak, read, and write certain languages." -- Basic Rules, 11

The phrase "you can speak, read, and write" appears in every race entry of the game, under Languages.

Sigh. Right, fine. Lol. That is a remarkably stupid place to put that, instead of anywhere at all in the language sections of either the DMG or PHB. That's what I get for actually looking in the LANGUAGES section of the manuals. @_@ Nevertheless, any language you learn beyond your race (or background since it explicitly mentions expanding on your racial languages) you aren't literate in, by default. Mechanically speaking, the Linguist feat doesn't allow you to read and write any of the languages you learn for it. Same with the training section, you spend 250 days and you just learn the language per the language rules, not the racial rules.

But you understand what I am saying, and ignoring the actual point.

 

[Einlanzer0]

Oh no. Do you have a lot of images to back that last point up?

Anyway, this seems like a fine houserule. I would just note that you list of eight proposed abilities doesn't have one for social interactions. Not sure that persuasion/deception maps neatly on to any of these. You have changed "Resolve" to be devotion to causes and to force of personality, but to borrow from the plain english (which is where the root of all of these problems started, it would seem), the most resolute and strong-willed don't necessarily have the best ability to persuade and deceive.

I addressed all of your questions in the post you quoted. In short - I don't believe that the ability to communicate or influence others should be neatly tied to one ability score. Your ability to communicate effectively is actually related to all of your mental attributes, as is your ability to lead. I would revise the skill system to reflect this change.

Dex and agility are not the same thing. All you have to do to see that is look at the animal kingdom. We are by far more dexterous than any animal on Earth, but we have well below average agility. In fact, agility has a closer connection to strength than it does to dexterity. However, it makes sense for them to be separate due to the relativity involved. I.e. the difference in strength between a cat and a human (favoring humans) is much greater than the difference in agility (favoring cats) due to the disproportionate role size plays in strength relative to other attributes.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[GreenTengu]

It seems to me that if what you want to make is a priest who is primarily about giving speeches and winning people over by force of personality alone, what you really should be making is a Bard who specializes in the Religion skill. I think it would be a pretty solid fit for this preacher concept as most of such an individuals power is based around performance. I know it can be difficult to think of broadening the Bard concept in such a way as the class is perhaps a little too tied to the picture of the wandering minstrel, but if one widens their mind a bit I think it would work.

A wisdom based caster strikes me as being one who is naturally attune to the energies in the universe and has an innate passive understanding of the way things work. In touch with the spirits, the way people and things generally work.

I think perhaps the problem is the two-meanings of willpower. When it comes to Wisdom, willpower would be your ability to remain on your own path and kind of pick up on signs of deception in order to avoid it. When it comes to Charisma, that sort of willpower is being able to get people to do what you like, even if against their own desires.

One is defensive and one is offensive, but I think you can see how they work out.

In fact, maybe you can line up the mental stats and the physical stats.

Strength & Charisma - Ability to apply pressure to others.
Dexterity & Intelligence - Ability to avoid situations or find your way into an advantageous one to apply pressure correctly.
Constitution & Wisdom - Ability to resist pressures being placed upon you and to endure longer in order to apply pressure to others.

Although this model does in fact show that perhaps Wisdom is a poor choice when it comes to what ability one should be drawing upon for the strength of their spells. After all, there is no class that allows you to use Constitution offensively in order to cause damage.

If there were a MAD casting class that uses spell points, I think Charisma would be used for the power of the spells, Intelligence would be used for your ability to hit correctly with the spells and Wisdom would be used for how many points you get....

 

[Oofta]

It seems to me that if what you want to make is a priest who is primarily about giving speeches and winning people over by force of personality alone, what you really should be making is a Bard who specializes in the Religion skill. I think it would be a pretty solid fit for this preacher concept as most of such an individuals power is based around performance. I know it can be difficult to think of broadening the Bard concept in such a way as the class is perhaps a little too tied to the picture of the wandering minstrel, but if one widens their mind a bit I think it would work.

Amen.

Oooh! Can he be preaching the gospel of Banjo?

 

[mrpopstar]

Sigh. Right, fine. Lol. That is a remarkably stupid place to put that, instead of anywhere at all in the language sections of either the DMG or PHB. That's what I get for actually looking in the LANGUAGES section of the manuals. @_@ Nevertheless, any language you learn beyond your race (or background since it explicitly mentions expanding on your racial languages) you aren't literate in, by default. Mechanically speaking, the Linguist feat doesn't allow you to read and write any of the languages you learn for it. Same with the training section, you spend 250 days and you just learn the language per the language rules, not the racial rules.

"Your race indicates the languages your character can speak by default, and your background might give you access to one or more additional languages of your choice." -- Player's Handbook, 123
"Some backgrounds also allow characters to learn additional languages beyond those given by race." -- Player's Handbook, 125

With race being the referenced default, I understand that languages you learn include the ability to speak, read, and write.

Again, the game assumes competence.

But you understand what I am saying, and ignoring the actual point.

I understand what you're saying, and I'm not ignoring your point, I merely disagree.

I'm also being obtuse about my belief in the rules as written because I find them valuable, meaningful, and well considered.

 

[pemerton]

Charisma as a casting stat associates magic with your person.

The magic of clerics does not arise from their person.

Clerics, for all intents and purposes, are tools.

There is no barter, exchange, swear or oath.

They are simply vessels, conduits.

They are selfless in that regard.

Charisma, as it has been presented, is an awkward fit.

But why does the same reasoning not apply to paladins?

 

[pemerton]

The question here is not how the gods choose the clerics, but how the clerics, once chosen, cast their spells. They do so as conduits for the power of something external to them. Thus, their spellcasting stat is not the one which reflects your ability to project your own will onto others, but the one which reflects your ability to be receptive to things outside you.

Why, then, are paladins different?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Why, then, are paladins different?

Presumably because Paladins aren't chosen by deities, not directly granted magic by them. A Paladin's divine power is a consequence of their Oath, so may be related to the passion and eloquence with which they express it.

 

[Tectuktitlay]

Presumably because Paladins aren't chosen by deities, not directly granted magic by them. A Paladin's divine power is a consequence of their Oath, so may be related to the passion and eloquence with which they express it.

No, they explicitly gain their magical power before they take an oath, explicitly cast their spells like a cleric does, and the only spell-based boon their oath provides them is access to a handful of additional spells.