Clerics can't heal (NPCs)?

[Piratecat]

Of course a PC of level X is stronger than a standard monster/NPC of level X. The PCs are supposed to win that fight most of the time. PCs are like *elite* monsters and I strongly suspect that an elite monster of level X is comperable in power to a PC of the same level.

[totally off topic] Hey, hi! Didn't know you were back on the site. It's good to see you. [/totally off topic]

 

[hong]

This argument would make sense if there were no games but D&D. However, there are LOTS of game, many of which follow the 'PCs are t3h 133t' paradigm, many of which disdain the 'peasant to lord' model of D&D. None of them -- with the exception of Vampire, for one month -- outsold D&D.

None of the games that follow the "PCs are nothing more than faces in the crowd" paradigm outsell D&D either. Isn't this fun?

This tells me that the D&D paradigm is popular. People like to grow and magnify in power.

Grind is still and will always be a part of the D&D paradigm. Your point is...?

4e starts you tougher...but you increase in power at a slower, more steady, rate, and from what I've seen, the high end game looks an awful lot like the low end game.

As long as raise dead, fly and teleport are still around, the high-end game will be nothing like the low-end game.

You have bigger numbers but the general probabilities seem to remain at the same point.

The general probabilities will be about the same for the same class of opposition. The higher levels open up more possibilities for facing different classes of opposition.

It doesn't look like it will *feel* different, especially since class differences, overall, have been flattened. The fighter will still be a bit better in melee than the wizard, but not overwhelmingly so. They'll both have the same number of powers, more or less. WOTC, and many posters, seem to feel this is a feature...I have a feeling that, for many D&D players, it's a bug.

... says the guy who didn't play D&D for 20 years and never uses half the D&D stuff he buys.

(Artificial distinctions between tiers like 'at 11th level you get to wear rings!' make it seem even more likely that actual play doesn't feel any different at level 30 than at level 1.)

So... it's going to be exactly the same, except where it's different?

 

[Lizard]

As long as raise dead, fly and teleport are still around, the high-end game will be nothing like the low-end game.

Teleport is now a first level power.

 

[hong]

Teleport is now a first level power.

No, it's not.

 

[Lizard]

No, it's not.

Then what do Eladrin do?

 

[Mouseferatu]

Teleport is now a first level power.

You're not really equating a 25-ft. battlefield hop with world-spanning, game-changing teleportation, are you?

That sort of hyperbole is Hong's bailiwick.

 

[xechnao]

This tells me that the D&D paradigm is popular. People like to grow and magnify in power.

IMO you have jumped to the wrong conclusion. People do not grow and magnigy in power in gameplay. They simply can explore more areas and thus expand. It is about exploration. Video games levels may happen to be more explicit due to the graphical rapresentation but D&D levels are the same thing.

 

[hong]

IMO you have jumped to the wrong conclusion. People do not grow and magnigy in power in gameplay. They simply can explore more areas and thus expand. It is about exploration. Video games levels may happen to be more explicit due to the graphical rapresentation but D&D levels are the same thing.

Grind is still and will always be a part of all the dominant RPGs in every medium. Along with bling.

 

[Lizard]

You're not really equating a 25-ft. battlefield hop with world-spanning, game-changing teleportation, are you?

That sort of hyperbole is Hong's bailiwick.

And who am I debating with?

"To each according to their abilities..."

EDIT: Actually, Eladrin teleport bothers me a lot more than world-jumping, because there's a lot more 1st level (or no level) eladrin than world-hopping wizards. I'd think that any eladrin entering a human/dwarf/etc city would be blindfolded and required to be escorted everywhere, under pain of death, because otherwise, anything he can see, he can get to. It also makes you wonder how eladrin cities are built -- are there windows?

But that's another thread.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Then what do Eladrin do?

Step into the feywild, walk 25 feet, then step back out. They can only do this when they can see where they want to step out before they step in. And they can only do it again if they've had 5 minutes of rest, so I suspect they feel a bit off after doing it.

Fitz