Clerics can't heal (NPCs)?

[Lacyon]

Mwuhahahahahahahahaha!

Seriously. Just so the discussion can get on yet another track, not all NPCs/monsters have second wind or any way to use healing surges in combat.

The game itself has tools for customizing this to taste, of course. As designers, and I count every DM in that camp, we all want to be able to tinker.

Amen.

I have to agree with the sentiment that, a lot of times, a monster is actually harming its survivability by using a standard action to just heal a little. Sometimes that's true for PCs too—but desperation can lead to bad choices. That's probably okay, since you take the good with the bad.

Absolutely. Even when it's a subpar action, it's not usually a really crappy action, because you get a meaningful amount of hp and a defense bonus, and you can take advantage of the defense bonus to maybe avoid some OAs as you position yourself better. But having an extra option that's only a really good idea some of the time means that you're only really better off than someone who doesn't have it some of the time.

Oh, and yeah, that dwarf ability is uber. Second wind as a minor action. Wheeee! Love it.

After a serious look it definitely appears that all the racial powers are pretty potent.

 

[Khur]

You realize, of course, that you started the 12th page? Now we can't stop until we get to 13.

*sigh*

 

[Derren]

Elites and Solos are much more likely to find it useful, except that they're going to be facing the combined attacks of multiple PCs.

You know that there was a huge solo monster in the DDXP adventure? Do you really think the dragon can't benefit from regaining 25% of its HP?

If NPC Dwarves don't get their racial ability, that'll be a big hit to their effectiveness.

The sample Dwarf NPC (Statcard) doesn't has this ability.....

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hahaha, sorry I lost ya.

You won’t see a lot of wunderpriests in implied 4e story/world. You will see some. And you’ll see more in 4e campaign settings. It’s just that for every one wunderpriest, there are about 80 guys called “priests” that can’t cast divine prayer one. Those guys are great for marriages and funerals, and some of ‘em can even help you out with a few cool rituals, but they aren’t true spellcasters.

Well, yeah, I'd hope so. 3e had this, too, though they had the "true spellcasting" of an adept, and I do look forward to 4e's more ritualized approach.

What I'm wondering about is all the OTHER people in the world who go into dungeons and kill monsters for fame and fortune.

The people who aren't the PC's, but who would keep power with them, because they're engaged in the same things.

The ones who maybe retired after finding the MacGuffin or slaying the Dragon. The ones who guard the Portals to the Abyss against further incursion. The heroes of the Olde Days, whom the bards will compare the current PC party to.

Or the rival group from the Easterlands who are racing the PC's to the treasure. Or the last guys who went down into that dungeon and weren't quite at the PC's level.

I guess it's totally possible that the implied setting ditches the idea of NPC "adventurers" entirely, but that'd be a little sad. I like a world where the PC's aren't the only movers, shakers, and temple-raiders, and portal-guarders, and evil-vizier-killers, where it's implied that this is a whole world of mythic adventure and at any moment, the PC party could be any of these adventures, that they're one group amongst many with legendary stories to tell.

I guess, to put it more plainly: if the PC's use special rules that are for the PC's only, what about the people who, in the world, are functionally equivalent to the PC's, but who just don't happen to be the party we're focusing on? Maybe that's totally not a problem, though?

Your world can differ. I didn’t use the word “may,” because that would imply I’m giving you permission. You don’t need mine or anyone else’s to make your D&D, whatever the edition, any way you like it.

I hope you like it. If not, I hope you enjoy whatever else you choose to play.

IMO, I think my reception of 4e is kind of hindered by 3e's success. 2e, for me, had become unplayable without heavy modification. 3e I can still enjoy from levels 1-15, and that's a LOT of gaming time (longer than most of my campaigns last!). 4e might be better, but it's a diminishing return. I think I'll go start a new thread about that.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

What I'm wondering about is all the OTHER people in the world who go into dungeons and kill monsters for fame and fortune.

The people who aren't the PC's, but who would keep power with them, because they're engaged in the same things.

AAAAAAAARRRRGH! Why are people obsessed about this. Of course there are "PC-Power Level" people elsewhere in the rules, there is just a streamlined way to make their bloody Statblock if you want it. If you need to PC stat all PC-Power level humans you CAN!

 

[HeinorNY]

"

You know that there was a huge solo monster in the DDXP adventure? Do you really think the dragon can't benefit from regaining 25% of its HP?

Talking about monsters:
Do you really want monsters to have Second Wind, or some similar ability?
I'm sorry, but that would end up being bad game design IMO. Monsters are there to be killed, at least 99% of those who appear in the game. If monsters had Second Wind, one of the 2 situations would come up:
-Monster's second wind heals less than what a character can deal of damage in one round, so it's better for the monster to keep attacking. Second Wind is useless and will never be used anyway. No reason to be there.
-Monster's second wind heals good and it's very useful for the monsters, so monster's will always activate it in combat (since they are there to die remember?). But if every monster is always using second wind anyway, just make it into extra HPs. No reason to be there, again.

It's just better for the game that some monsters will have very specifically types of "second wind", like the Bullete's. Those customized "second winds" are better game design than copying "second wind" and pasting into all monsters stats.

The sample Dwarf NPC (Statcard) doesn't has this ability.....

I'd like to hear a little more about NPCs not having their racial abilities, from designers or anyone else.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I guess, to put it more plainly: if the PC's use special rules that are for the PC's only, what about the people who, in the world, are functionally equivalent to the PC's, but who just don't happen to be the party we're focusing on? Maybe that's totally not a problem, though?

Well, as I understood it, you can choose to use PC rules for NPCs. If that's what you "need" for the story - or your personal sense of versimilidingsbums - then you can do it.

What I am wondering is: What XP values are assigned to PCs? Are they treated like "regular" monsters? Or are they treated more like Elites?

 

[Lacyon]

You know that there was a huge solo monster in the DDXP adventure? Do you really think the dragon can't benefit from regaining 25% of its HP?

Given that a big chunk of tables were TPKed (or otherwise lost that fight), no. In those cases, at least, it wouldn't have really benefitted from regaining 25% of its hp.

In the other cases, you have to guess or calculate if regaining 25% of your hp and boosting your defenses for a turn is better than dishing out a bunch of damage and potentially dropping a couple of opponents. Since the dragon is suffering every PC's attack each round, it could well be losing around 25% of its hp on average against at-level opponents, in which case spending a round to heal isn't usually a good idea. The playtest would have been an exception, because the first-level characters wouldn't have as much damage output.

Given that Chris has already confirmed that not all monsters and NPCs have healing surges, it's totally possible that the Dragon doesn't have it. Heck, maybe the designers decided to just give him a 25% boost to hp and say "He doesn't need an action to get it back, he just has it for free". Nobody would know the difference if they didn't peek behind the screen.

 

[eleran]

Nobody would know the difference if they didn't peek behind the screen.

THIS. I get the feeling from a lot of the posters here and in the WotC forum that there are far too many DMs out there who let their players in on every bit of minutiae about everything. Maybe its just me, but what happens on my side of the screen stays on my side of the screen, and I expect that from my DMs as well.

 

[Benimoto]

It's just better for the game that some monsters will have very specifically types of "second wind", like the Bullete's. Those customized "second winds" are better game design than copying "second wind" and pasting into all monsters stats.

I agree with ainatan here. Monsters should be able to use their healing surges in combat if a specific ability allows them to, but giving all monsters a "second wind" type ability doesn't really appeal to me.