Clerics can't heal (NPCs)?

[Cadfan]

AAAAAAAARRRRGH! Why are people obsessed about this. Of course there are "PC-Power Level" people elsewhere in the rules, there is just a streamlined way to make their bloody Statblock if you want it. If you need to PC stat all PC-Power level humans you CAN!

I feel your pain, bro. I feel your pain.

 

[AllisterH]

What I am wondering is: What XP values are assigned to PCs? Are they treated like "regular" monsters? Or are they treated more like Elites?

In-between. Monsters of X level are not designed to actually kill a PC of the same level but to provide a decent challenge.

An Elite is too strong for one PC, but just right for 2 PCs thus you split the difference.

Thus, for every 3 PCs in the party, you should use 2 opposing NPC (who use the class structure). Which if you think about it, makes sense given that 3 on 2 favours the more numerous side but it isn't a complete domination.

 

[Moribund]

I'd like to hear a little more about NPCs not having their racial abilities, from designers or anyone else.

It's entirely possible that the NPCs of PC races won't have the same racial abilities as PCs. For instance, if NPCs don't have Second Wind, I fail to see how Dwarven NPCs could have Dwarven Resilience.

It is true that the stats we have for NPCs of PC races don't list any racial abilities, but that could be for a number of reasons:

The miniature stat card may have abbreviated stats.

Those abilities weren't finalized at the time Dungeons of Dread was printed. (The presence of cones in those stats is a testament to DuOD's time in the development schedule.)

Nor do all NPC races list iconic racial abilities like the Kobold's Shifty or the Gnoll's Pack Attack. Drow don't have one, as an example.

 

[Immolate]

I think we can all agree that self-healing as an ability of opponents in a game is a dish best served in moderation. If that ability is limited to those creatures who have it as a racial feature (because it makes sense or makes them more fun to fight) or to leveled opponents that use PC-style creation mechanics, I will be satisfied. Most of the time, I'd rather be fighting things that die in a reasonable number of rounds. That may not seem fair to everyone, but I'm in it for the fun - not to give the bad guys an even chance at winning.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, as I understood it, you can choose to use PC rules for NPCs. If that's what you "need" for the story - or your personal sense of versimilidingsbums - then you can do it.

Then I, at least, won't have any new problems with 4e NPCing. And this might go a long way to rectifying the problems of the "1st level is nothing" folks, because they could populate their world with 20th level village healers, if they want the PC's to be like everyone else in capability.

Sounds good to me, a nice place where "NPCs and PCs are different!" is set aside in the interest of perhaps finding a middle ground.

What I am wondering is: What XP values are assigned to PCs? Are they treated like "regular" monsters? Or are they treated more like Elites?

Good question. If I was to pit an equal-level party of "evil bizarro twins" against the PC's, would it be an equal-level challenge (like 3e kind of pretended it would be), or something tougher?

 

[kennew142]

IMO giving second wind to all NPCs would be a terrible idea. One of the best pieces of GMing advice I ever read was in the HERO game. I don't have the book with me, so I'll have to paraphrase.

If you want to make sure that everyone has a terrible experience, please be sure to give every agent a RECOVERY on each of his phases.

The point is that NPCs should be down for the count once they've been dropped. The experience is more enjoyable for most players, and makes for a better story. If you're one of those players who don't find this more enjoyable, you can give all of your NPCs and monsters one second wind per encounter. You should always do what makes a better game for you and your fellows.

 

[Lizard]

IMO giving second wind to all NPCs would be a terrible idea. One of the best pieces of GMing advice I ever read was in the HERO game. I don't have the book with me, so I'll have to paraphrase.

If you want to make sure that everyone has a terrible experience, please be sure to give every agent a RECOVERY on each of his phases.

The point is that NPCs should be down for the count once they've been dropped. The experience is more enjoyable for most players, and makes for a better story. If you're one of those players who don't find this more enjoyable, you can give all of your NPCs and monsters one second wind per encounter. You should always do what makes a better game for you and your fellows.

Well, this is a good point.

In Hero, agents/mooks/whatever *have* REC -- the GM is just (well) advised to ignore it, either completely, or after they drop to 0 STUN. They aren't weird non-healing mutants (well, unless they ARE, this being Hero and all...); for purely game-efficiency reasons, the DM is given the *option* of having them "forget" to recover.

This is different, very different, from "Low level minions don't have hit points" and "You know a dwarf is destined to grow up to be a great hero/villain if he has Second Wind".

How hard would it be to have, say, a note which said "If minion level<=party level, you should consider ignoring their hit points and just having them drop from anything the players do which damages them"?

 

[Charwoman Gene]

This is different, very different, from "Low level minions don't have hit points" and "You know a dwarf is destined to grow up to be a great hero/villain if he has Second Wind".

It's really not for most people.

 

[Lacyon]

How hard would it be to have, say, a note which said "If minion level<=party level, you should consider ignoring their hit points and just having them drop from anything the players do which damages them"?

As far as I know, that's exactly what's in there, with the exception of the Kobold minion (which looks to have something akin to 1 HP plus an 'Evasion'-like ability that prevents him from dying on a missed fireball.

Of course, they also have really low hit points.

As I mentioned in the minion thread, it's not terribly hard to 'rationalize' this as PCs sensing that those kinds of creatures aren't good fighters and thus 'Power Attacking' them enough to kill them in one hit (except that in-game, we give them fewer hit points and higher defenses so that everything's precalculated and we don't have to do it on a round-to-round or attack-to-attack basis). Likewise, these weak creatures sense that they're far outclassed and constantly use 'Careful Attacks', sacrificing their damage potential for increased accuracy so that the group has a chance of taking down the target.

The main differences are that you don't have to spend character feats to get the ability to do this (like 3E's power attack), and you don't have to recalculate your attack and damage values every round. The math probably won't match up exactly with Power Attack either.

 

[HeinorNY]

In Hero, agents/mooks/whatever *have* REC -- the GM is just (well) advised to ignore it, either completely, or after they drop to 0 STUN. They aren't weird non-healing mutants (well, unless they ARE, this being Hero and all...); for purely game-efficiency reasons, the DM is given the *option* of having them "forget" to recover.

It seems the distinction between HERO and 4E is that the later has smarter game designers. Why waste space and effort and then say "see all these mechanics here, don't use them"?