Clerics' Channeling, not casting(long post, sorry)

[Apeiron]

i'm excited about where this is headed. If i wasn't at work i could post some detailed thoughts, but here are a few things off the top of my head.

- Consider the way that Shadow Casters progress in their powers. At first an effect is cast like a spell, as the gain levels, that same power eventually becomes easier/faster to cast. For your model of clerics, it would be like saying, Cure Light Wounds is a big deal at first. As the priest gains favor, CLW becomes an after thought, cast as a free action, and perhaps at range.

- Chants: Similar to Bard song, a cleric could pray continuously and provide some buff to allies or nerf to foes, or provide some general effect. The effect would start on the character's next turn, and remain until they stop the chant, or their concentration is broken. Maintaining the chant requires a Concentration + Wis check vs 10 + Level of the Chant + Damage taken since the last check. Create feats that improve the concentration check or lower the DCs. Assigning levels to the chants might be unnecessary.

Sample Chant - Repel (Opposing Alignment): While this chant is active, creatures of (Opposing Alignment) must make a will save to approach, and remain within X squares of the priest, where X is the level of the chant.

- We could steal from Diablo 2 and have auras a la paladins.

- Rituals: Similar to spells, but take minutes or hours to perform, thus are useless in combat, and require participants and equipment that make performing them in the wilds difficult. Rituals are a big big deal, they allow even low level clerics to request the miraculous. More participants, better participants, better equipment, more time invested etc, add up to increase the chance of success.

In a small church of similar alignment +1
In a large church of similar alighment +2
In a small church of that diety +3
In a large church of that diety +4
Plain old incense +1
Fancy incense +1
Per hour of doing the hokey pokey +1
Some participant is hoping the ritual will fail +ECL to the DC

Each ritual has a base DC (a fairly high one), then the leader of the ritual makes a serious of checks. A hasty performance would be a straight roll of d20 + bonuses. Making checks once per minute allows the caster to take 10, taking an hour per check gives them 20. Some rituals might have a faster or slower check rate. The ritual might be pass/fail, or it could have degrees of success. A resurrection ritual might restore one level per successful check. Failing a check might prevent further checks that day, or have some detrimental effect.

Create a skill for Rituals of (Deity) and feats to go with it.

- Karma/Faith: Karma is a reward for actions the deity likes, and fuel for making things happen. Faith is the cleric's degree of trust/love/fear in the deity.

Here's where things can get really fun:

Allow non clerics to ask favors of their god. Create a feat called Faith. When selected the player chooses the deity, and then can earn Karma with that god. Non-clerics don't have a direct line to their god, but they can still ask for a bit of help. This could make for awesome flavor in a campaign where the gods are fairly involved with their worshippers.

 

[papastebu]

With fighters, missing once in a while is expected, however, with the magic users, it's generally felt that they'll get the spell off almost all the time (except when they get hit or countered).

Clerics don't even use magic, much less cast spells, with this system.
Healing, since it's the main thing they do, I can see being automatic, up to a point, as harm. Maybe heal/harm is twice cleric's class level, per day, + charisma mod, as a general gift from whom they serve. Otherwise, no "spells", merely powers tied to domains or deity's area(s) of influence. Any of these may be activated a total of once per level per day--2nd level cleric can use any two powers for free on a given day--for "just cuz I say so", again as a gift for services rendered.
All later uses must be requested directly via "Oh, Lord! You are so very large! In your bigness, please direct thy smitey smitings from on high, and render mine enemies to red vapor." Any other reqests on the deity's attention are a matter for the GM to determine.
This uses the brood idea, which is addressed again below.

I think that for the brood ratings automatically lowering them more often would be a good idea (maybe every 4 levels?).
However, if you start at higher than level 1, determining your initial brood rating is going to be difficult.

Initial brood rating is tied to the deity, not the cleric. The cleric's class levels mitigate this by one each level.
"Nice-Guy Deity" has a starting brood of 8, let's say, because even nice guys get irritated when their kids come up and tap them on the shoulder a hundred times in two hours' time.
"Big Meanie Deity" has a brood of 14 or 15, maybe as high as 20, if he's a complete hater, but I doubt he could resist eating all of his servants, if that were so.
The thing that changes the brood for the cleric is the amount of time he's worked for that deity, i.e., how many cleric levels he has. I can accept 4th level as the reduction point, but I think with the modifications above, this post, I would also have to raise the initial brood ratings, so that non-free uses don't "just happen"

You might want to check out the Truenamer from Tome of Magic, they use a very similar mechanic, but the DCs for a given power are constant and the DCs scale better (you wind up needing to max out the Truespeak skill in order to be able to reliably use your higher level powers, but the lower level ones get vastly easier to accomplish).

The changes I've made above may address some of the scaling issues, because it gives them back some automatic uses.

 

[papastebu]

i'm excited about where this is headed. If i wasn't at work i could post some detailed thoughts, but here are a few things off the top of my head.[QUOTE/]
I'm glad to have inspired someone, and rambling is very nearly as good as brainstorming

- Consider the way that Shadow Casters progress in their powers. At first an effect is cast like a spell, as the gain levels, that same power eventually becomes easier/faster to cast. For your model of clerics, it would be like saying, Cure Light Wounds is a big deal at first. As the priest gains favor, CLW becomes an after thought, cast as a free action, and perhaps at range.

I like the free action and at range ideas, but I've decided to make heal/harm automatic, up to 2(cleric's level)(day) +Charisma modifier, except for extra uses. All other powers, including turn/rebuke/harm/heal undead, may be used for free a total number of times equal to the cleric's level, per day. Once this allotment is through, then subsequent powers-use is a check, using brood as the DC. No levels as such, except for the efficacy of a given power, what it can accomplish if the deity allows.

- Chants: Similar to Bard song, a cleric could pray continuously and provide some buff to allies or nerf to foes, or provide some general effect. The effect would start on the character's next turn, and remain until they stop the chant, or their concentration is broken. Maintaining the chant requires a Concentration + Wis check vs 10 + Level of the Chant + Damage taken since the last check. Create feats that improve the concentration check or lower the DCs. Assigning levels to the chants might be unnecessary.

This I like almost all of. It's kind of neat to think of some zealot out in the battlefield, expounding--kind of like Prayer--on the virtues of his deity, though arrows and swords whirl about him. But the initial activation would be 1d20 + Cha mod + cleric levels versus the current brood rating of the deity, unless he'd not used up his freebies for the day. A standard Concentration check would be necessary only if the cleric's chant was interupted--or nearly so, as the case might be--by him taking damage, getting knocked over, paralyzed, or whatever. I think that a single activation of this ability--free or otherwise--would last as long as cleric levels plus charisma modifier, and then a new activation would have to take place. The actual use of the power, once granted, has little to do with the cleric's willpower or intent: the intent was expressed in the prayer.

- We could steal from Diablo 2 and have auras a la paladins.

Check out the OP. Protections, Blessings, Curses, etc, already fill that niche, for clerics. Paladins, on the other hand, might benefit from something like that.

Rituals: Similar to spells, but take minutes or hours to perform, thus are useless in combat, and require participants and equipment that make performing them in the wilds difficult. Rituals are a big big deal, they allow even low level clerics to request the miraculous. More participants, better participants, better equipment, more time invested etc, add up to increase the chance of success.
In a small church of similar alignment +1
In a large church of similar alighment +2
In a small church of that diety +3
In a large church of that diety +4
Plain old incense +1
Fancy incense +1
Per hour of doing the hokey pokey +1
Some participant is hoping the ritual will fail +ECL to the DC

I'm not sure how these would fit. I could see prayers getting a boost from location or from holy ones nearby, but what purpose would the Ritual idea serve? In-game, I mean, with clerics as non-casters? In an aside, I was just reminded when I read "hokey-pokey", of the book, Master of the Five Magics, by Lyndon Hardy. The practitioners of True Magic performed rituals, sometimes bizarre, but always exacting, to make "items most magical".

Each ritual has a base DC (a fairly high one), then the leader of the ritual makes a serious of checks. A hasty performance would be a straight roll of d20 + bonuses. Making checks once per minute allows the caster to take 10, taking an hour per check gives them 20. Some rituals might have a faster or slower check rate. The ritual might be pass/fail, or it could have degrees of success. A resurrection ritual might restore one level per successful check. Failing a check might prevent further checks that day, or have some detrimental effect.

Again, I'm having trouble seeing the use of this one.

- Karma/Faith: Karma is a reward for actions the deity likes, and fuel for making things happen. Faith is the cleric's degree of trust/love/fear in the deity.

Kind of like some sort of special points that anyone can get. They would have to be hard to come by, or things would get out of hand. Non-clerics should have very few of these, and far between, but still know that their deity is listening. NPCs, unless clerics, should have extremely limited access, and only if some great feat of derring-do or somesuch has occurred.

Allow non clerics to ask favors of their god. Create a feat called Faith. When selected the player chooses the deity, and then can earn Karma with that god. Non-clerics don't have a direct line to their god, but they can still ask for a bit of help. This could make for awesome flavor in a campaign where the gods are fairly involved with their worshippers.

This is one of the best ideas in your post, if not THE. The limitations would have to stand, though, or you'd have peasants the world over commanding divine power.
Man, ya'll are really coming through for me on this one!

 

[Apeiron]

Are you updating the OP as you go? If not, it would help me see to see the sum of the theories in one place.

Glad i can help. It's nice to see that there is at least one other here who doesn't mind barbecuing sacred cows.

i think you'll get a lot of resistance on the Charisma thing. Setting Wisdom as a sort of fuel supply and Charisma as efficiency or finesse might be a happy medium. Of course you could just ignore it and do yo thang.

 

[Eolin]

This all seems fairly complicated.

Want to get rid of Vancian casting for clerics? Fine, but there should be an easier way.

I like the increasing difficulty modifier, and the idea that you can pray for longer to lower the DC.

How about every "spell" "cast" (that is, prayers used) increases the DC of using another one?

Maybe something like:
Number of Spells answered before DC's increase: Wisdom modifier. [time level?]

Getting a prayer answered: DC 10 + Spell Level + Spells cast past the baseline.

Pray for a round asking for favors, lower the next DC by your charisma modifier.

Each spell past [wisdom modifier] each day (or, maybe, wisdom mod times level.) increases the DC to have another prayer answered by the level of the prayer answered.

Make turning into a prayer, where the level of prayer is corrleated with the DC or something.

DC of the spell: Unchanged. Wisdom-based.

Thoughts?

 

[papastebu]

Are you updating the OP as you go? If not, it would help me see to see the sum of the theories in one place.

Glad i can help. It's nice to see that there is at least one other here who doesn't mind barbecuing sacred cows.

i think you'll get a lot of resistance on the Charisma thing. Setting Wisdom as a sort of fuel supply and Charisma as efficiency or finesse might be a happy medium. Of course you could just ignore it and do yo thang.

I just updated as much as I could get my head around at once. There'll be more, but my son needs help studying for his testes TESTS, tomorrow.

 

[papastebu]

I like the increasing difficulty modifier, and the idea that you can pray for longer to lower the DC.

Thanks. If the clerics just went and ticked off their benefactors without ever trying to appease them, they wouldn't last long. Aside from that, powers would be really hard to use with a DC of 100 or so.

How about every "spell" "cast" (that is, prayers used) increases the DC of using another one?

Exactly.

Maybe something like:
Number of Spells answered before DC's increase: Wisdom modifier. [time level?]

"Free-use" allotment is cleric's class level plus Charisma modifier. After that, it's the brood rating of the deity +1 for each power of any sort use, except for true interventions. See the OP quotes area.

Getting a prayer answered: DC 10 + Spell Level + Spells cast past the baseline.

DC=deity's brood + #of requests made, +/- x for holy/unholy place/person, etc.

Pray for a round asking for favors, lower the next DC by your charisma modifier.

Are you saying "To gain favor?" That's right, if so. The problem I have with this is that it has the potential of making some very powerful things happen easily, and quickly. I think sticking with -1 per "favor-mongering" prayer is the right idea. That way the ease of use doesn't happen too fast.

Each spell past [wisdom modifier] each day (or, maybe, wisdom mod times level.) increases the DC to have another prayer answered by the level of the prayer answered.

The idea is right, here, except that the level of an effect isn't relevent. A deity can do just about anything within his area of power. The domain powers are leveled, but only so far as they gain efficacy. A request for strength of will to resist a spell might have more effect when the cleric is third level than when she was first, but not because of anything she did, except be steadfast in her service to her god. The power all comes from the Higher Power. The thing that's going to make it more difficult to use is the deity's mood, specifically, toward her.

Make turning into a prayer, where the level of prayer is corrleated with the DC or something.

DC of the spell: Unchanged. Wisdom-based.

Thoughts?

I have always thought of turning as a granted power activated by prayer. Take a look at my EDITs in the OP. I'm pretty sure that's how I want to handle it.