Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

[Alzrius]

Interesting. If you do happen to stumble on it, I would be interested in a reference, but don't bother looking on my account - I don't play 2nd Ed any more, so it's only of academic interest really.

Well, I already went and found it, so I might as well. It's on page 85 of the original version of the 2E PHB (the one with the mounted warrior on the cover, rather than the black-bordered book with the guys kicking in the door), the last paragraph under the "Priest Spells" header on the previous page:

Finally, your DM may rule that not all deities are equal, so that those of lesser power are unable to grant certain spells. If this optional rule is used, powers of demigod status can only grant spells up to the 5th spell level. Lesser deities can grant 6th-level spells, while the greater deities have all spell levels available to them. You should inquire about this at the time you create your character (and decide which deity he worships), to prevent any unwelcome surprises later on.

In any case, I recommend ignoring that rule, as the net effect is to restrict the choice of deities for PC Clerics to Greater and Intermediate deities only - players always plan assuming they'll get to the top levels, and never want to miss out on the big powers!

I personally like the rule, since I think that anything that helps differentiate deities - and promotes role-playing - is a good thing. Handicaps are not necessarily something to be avoided out of hand if you're looking for inspiration for a character.

(One other option, though, would be to have all 1st level Clerics serve demigods, and have them 'graduate' up to Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater gods as they go - presumably moving from the servant deity to the master as they rise in prominence. But I've never seen that done, where I have seen players dismiss the Lesser gods out of hand.)

I think that's a really interesting idea! The political nature of deities - a la The Primal Order - is something I really like, so the idea that greater deities have various servitors of lesser divine status serving them, essentially creating mini-pantheons, strikes me as a very cool idea that helps play up this rule.

 

[delericho]

Well, I already went and found it, so I might as well. It's on page 85 of the original version of the 2E PHB

Thanks!

Finally, your DM may rule that not all deities are equal, so that those of lesser power are unable to grant certain spells. If this optional rule is used, powers of demigod status can only grant spells up to the 5th spell level. Lesser deities can grant 6th-level spells, while the greater deities have all spell levels available to them. You should inquire about this at the time you create your character (and decide which deity he worships), to prevent any unwelcome surprises later on.

Ah, sounds very much like an optional rule then. With regard to Forces and Philosophies, I don't think there's any actual ruling there at all, but presumably a DM could say that some are equivalent to Greater deities, some to Lesser deities, and so on. I don't think this is done anywhere, but then there aren't too many of them provided in the books anywhere.

(Certainly, though, one could see a setting being built that way - perhaps the Stoics follow a Greater philosophy and so gain 7th level spells, while the followers of Pythagoras are less numerous and so only gain 6th level spells, or whatever.)

I personally like the rule, since I think that anything that helps differentiate deities - and promotes role-playing - is a good thing. Handicaps are not necessarily something to be avoided out of hand if you're looking for inspiration for a character.

Fair enough, though it's not something I would do. In general, I go for the differentiation early and often, rendering it less necessary later.

(Oddly enough, that's something I might have considered using in 3e, if multi-classing had worked correctly. That way, 'Clerics' of the Lesser deity of thieves would simply not advance beyond level 12 in that class, but instead take levels of Rogue to fill up the gaps. Of course, it runs into problems, what with multiclass spellcasters generally sucking in that edition. )

 

[Bera]

Later in the run on the Planescape setting, I think a few of the factions had options for philosophy clerics. I think that would be in the Factol's Manifesto and the factions would have been the Athar, Godsmen, and (maybe?) Ciphers. I'm pretty sure at that least the Great Unknown (Athar) and the Source (Godsmen) were described as philosophies originating in the astral and ethereal planes (respectively) so they could be fit into the idea of clerical magic coming from a particular plane. I don't recall anything about philosophies or forces not being able to grant spells though.

 

[Starfox]

Later in the run on...

Products late in the run of an edition often contains seeds of what is to come in the new edition. In this case, a 2E product had clerics without patrons, something which became part of the general rules in 3E. In the same vein 4E encounter and power design appeared late in 3.5's run, such as in the book of 9 swords. Dragonlance in 1E presaged 2E's adventure style, and so on.

This is just a general observation, not a rebuttal of your post.

 

[Alzrius]

Later in the run on the Planescape setting, I think a few of the factions had options for philosophy clerics. I think that would be in the Factol's Manifesto and the factions would have been the Athar, Godsmen, and (maybe?) Ciphers. I'm pretty sure at that least the Great Unknown (Athar) and the Source (Godsmen) were described as philosophies originating in the astral and ethereal planes (respectively) so they could be fit into the idea of clerical magic coming from a particular plane. I don't recall anything about philosophies or forces not being able to grant spells though.

I do remember those being mentioned, though it bugged me that they were always for generic clerics, and had no information regarding specialty priests.

 

[Bera]

Thinking about it, the Hakima kit from Al-Qadim is more like a cleric of a force (fate? Truth?). Also, the Jakandor setting has a non-deity cleric kit or maybe two. Kits kinda just became a sexier technology than the make-a-class specialty priest option. Or, both did the same basic thing and using one technology (kits) was easier maybe.

But still, there was no limit to spells based on these kits. I think it fits in with the recommendation of Demi-humans going beyond the level limits. There's a steady loosening of clerics being limited by deity through the editions.

 

[Samloyal23]

When Planescape came out I thought a philosophy of Civilisation would fit well in Sigil, the City of Doors. It would allow clerics of the city without having a god to come in conflict with Dolores and Her love of flaying people...

 

[Starfox]

Recently, my view of what clerical magic is has changed somewhat. I now think of clerics as "astral magicians", using outer-planar forces to revitalize and restore the ideal forms of physical creatures. As opposed to arcane magic, that channels inner-planar forces in gross physical effects.

I know this view is not 100% - wizards do more than fireballs - but as a base theory of why divine and arcane magic differs, it works for me.

Under this paradigm, an astral magician doesn't really need to be a cleric (or otherwise have a patron). Astral magic can be taught just like arcane magic can. Still, it is very handy to have a patron since it simplifies both learning and preparing spells. And in-world, most people do not even realize this is how things are. This makes "clerics" of philosophies rare in most worlds, and purely theoretic "astral magicians" even more rare.

 

[Samloyal23]

Recently, my view of what clerical magic is has changed somewhat. I now think of clerics as "astral magicians", using outer-planar forces to revitalize and restore the ideal forms of physical creatures. As opposed to arcane magic, that channels inner-planar forces in gross physical effects.

I know this view is not 100% - wizards do more than fireballs - but as a base theory of why divine and arcane magic differs, it works for me.

Under this paradigm, an astral magician doesn't really need to be a cleric (or otherwise have a patron). Astral magic can be taught just like arcane magic can. Still, it is very handy to have a patron since it simplifies both learning and preparing spells. And in-world, most people do not even realize this is how things are. This makes "clerics" of philosophies rare in most worlds, and purely theoretic "astral magicians" even more rare.

Perhaps the Ur-Priest is the first step in the evolution of the Astral Magician...

 

[Samloyal23]

Hmm... How would you describe a religion like Buddhism or Scientology in game terms? Neither has a god sitting at the center, although they can be described as having "Powers" that are respected and appealed to. How about a philosophy of personal excellence, something slef-help oriented? Hmm...