Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

[Starfox]

I wrote the Pure Cleric archetype for Pathfinder to handle clerics who do not have a patron or delve into domains. It covers philosophical religions pretty well IHMO. But it is Pathfinder, not 2E.

 

[Bera]

Hmm... How would you describe a religion like Buddhism or Scientology in game terms? Neither has a god sitting at the center, although they can be described as having "Powers" that are respected and appealed to. How about a philosophy of personal excellence, something slef-help oriented? Hmm...

I think the issue is D&D hasn't done religion or "divine magic" very consistently. There's an assumption that a cleric belongs to a particular religious tradition and by violating that tradition's tenets, loses power. It isn't clear how different traditions might have not just differing but opposing beliefs about the fundamental nature of reality. There's also an assumption that deities are behind these religious traditions, yet Basic D&D's immortals function differently than AD&D's gods and demons. The existence of different planes of existence is generally a given. There's also implicit assumptions about the nature of a soul or ultimate reality in spells like Raise Dead, Finger of Death, Speak with Dead, Clone, Commune and Contact Other Plane, or Reincarnation.

I think by second edition we're just generally losing the ideas that there are different ranks of gods and that gods grant differing levels of spells to their followers. By the book, spells were still limited by wisdom (or intelligence for wizards) so you're not likely to be casting those without the DM being lenient and allowing you that high score (either by rolling method or granting items and wishes). Along with a general emphasis on story in second edition (demonstrated by their adventures containing more and more backstory and the abundance of settings) comes the emphasis that characters of the same class generally get the same abilities and, implicitly, your choice of religion for the cleric shouldn't limit your power. Obviously we see this idea taken further in later editions.

 

[Starfox]

DnD has always had an implied setting, and the assumptions Bera points to above are part of this.

 

[Alzrius]

There's also an assumption that deities are behind these religious traditions, yet Basic D&D's immortals function differently than AD&D's gods and demons.

Well, that's only true with regards to their genesis, and the specifics of their powers. Beyond that, they're both largely the same, particularly in terms of being able to grant spells to worshippers (even if deities have their spells restricted via spheres and their divine rank).

It's worth noting that towards the end of AD&D 2E, they were starting to list Mystaran Immortals as being AD&D deities outright.

I think by second edition we're just generally losing the ideas that there are different ranks of gods and that gods grant differing levels of spells to their followers.

I disagree. Virtually every 2E book about deities (that covered their powers and abilities in general, rather than just listing specific deities) still kept to that rule; we just saw instances of writers and editors forgetting to put it into play when they had some high-level NPCs of demigods and lesser gods appear in some adventures.

 

[Starfox]

Virtually every 2E book about deities (that covered their powers and abilities in general, rather than just listing specific deities) still kept to that rule; we just saw instances of writers and editors forgetting to put it into play when they had some high-level NPCs of demigods and lesser gods appear in some adventures.

This is sort of funny conundrum. Demigods generally appear at very high levels, where their servants need high-level spells to be competitive. Yet those same demigods could not grant high-level spells.

 

[Alzrius]

This is sort of funny conundrum. Demigods generally appear at very high levels, where their servants need high-level spells to be competitive. Yet those same demigods could not grant high-level spells.

I think this is a difference between world-building and encounter design.

You can have a demigod make an appearance as a high-level foe, and the lack of clerics throwing around 6th- and 7th-level spells might be an issue. In terms of world-design, however, their clerics don't need spells of those levels to be effective. The most important thing for a demigod is gaining more worshippers so that they can gain enough power to make the jump to a higher divine strata, and that means having more "boots on the ground" per se, evangelizing to the populace. In that case, low-level clerics can do just as well, since most commoners aren't going to need (or be able to afford) such high-level spells.

 

[Bera]

Looking at it closer, I couldn't find any references to demigods being limited to granting spells of 5th level or less and lesser gods being limited to granting 6th level or less in either the core books or the Priest's Handbook: just Legends and Lore (didn't check the any other deity books). So I'm guessing those are only inherited in the loose sense of backwards compatibility: it happened in 1st edition so we should let it happen in 2nd edition as well. But in practice, it seems to be left behind, possibly for some sort of balance or fairness reasons so all priests got 7th level access (assuming you pay attention to the needed high wisdom scores).

The few places where non-deities are granting spells (Sorcerer Kings and Elements in Dark Sun, the shaman classes from Shaman, the Jakandor Jurist and Philosopher kits in Isle of Destiny, Druids in general...) it seems as though the forces or philosophies just allow any spell up through 7th level.

 

[delericho]

Looking at it closer, I couldn't find any references to demigods being limited to granting spells of 5th level or less and lesser gods being limited to granting 6th level or less in either the core books or the Priest's Handbook: just Legends and Lore...

Alzrius provided the handy page reference for this (and actually, the quote, too): page 85 of the original version of the 2E PHB. It's perhaps worth noting that it is called out as an optional rule.

 

[Bera]

Alzrius provided the handy page reference for this (and actually, the quote, too): page 85 of the original version of the 2E PHB. It's perhaps worth noting that it is called out as an optional rule.

Ugh. Dingus alert.

Nonetheless, the deity-based assumptions of limited spellcasting from 1st edition are being left behind in 2nd. It seems that the powers that were had little interest in integrating the forces and philosophies priesthood notion with the demi-gods can't grant the highest-level spells notion. Tome of Magic likewise doesn't mention this in relation to quest spells (though it does call out that a cleric with wisdom 17 can't cast level 7 spells but may be granted a quest spell).

 

[delericho]

Nonetheless, the deity-based assumptions of limited spellcasting from 1st edition are being left behind in 2nd. It seems that the powers that were had little interest in integrating the forces and philosophies priesthood notion with the demi-gods can't grant the highest-level spells notion.

I tend to agree. As discussed up-thread, I never liked that rule, because it invariably had the effect (IMC at least) that players immediately discarded any Demigod or Lesser God as a patron for their character, just on the off-chance that they reached high enough level and then found themselves limited. (Though, IIRC, no Cleric ever reached a high enough level for it to actually matter. )

The net effect, therefore, was that the long and detailed list of potential deities was very quickly reduced to the handful of Greater and Intermediate Gods (and then further because they always went for a martial-ish deity), which led to an awful lot of material never ever seeing use in play.

(I did, however, muse a little on the possibilities of heirarchies of gods and/or Greater and Lesser Philosophies up-thread, if you're interested. I like to think that at least some of that didn't totally suck. )