D&D 5E Are Paladins Merely Mediocre Multiclass Fighter/Clerics?

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
Alternatively, pair the stats up so each class gets two.

Cleric: Con/Wis. They're defensive fighters, not offensive ones, and shepherds, not heralds.
Avenger: Int/Dex. A divine assassin must outwit and outpace her opponents.
Paladin: Str/Cha. They are putting evil to the sword and raising the holy battle banners.

Nice and clean, no need to insert a ton of new classes, with options to explore the two different sides (e.g. I could see a Holmesian divine "detective" subclass for Avenger focused on Int, observation, and skills more than on killinating things.) Obviously some Clerics might still want Strength and Paladins will probably still want Con, but their class features won't be predicated too much on the other stats.
That works as well.

The Archivist cold be folded into the Avenger as the seeker of knowledge over the default Avenger's slaying seekers of forbidden knowledge or monster against the order's tenets.

Clerics could still want STR to smash the foul but focus on CON to stay alive to buff and heal.
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
I haven't made it far jnto the thread, but the idea of ranger-as-martial-focused-druid is intriguing food for thought.

Hunters Mark should be a class ability.

Yes, I know there are reasons why it's not, but frankly all of them ring hollow to me.
90% of the Ranger''s identity problem is TSR/WOTC/EveryoneElse's unwillingness to make rangery spells.

Video games, comics,and anime are farther ahead on paladins and rangers imagery than TTRPGs.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
90% of the Ranger''s identity problem is TSR/WOTC/EveryoneElse's unwillingness to make rangery spells.

Video games, comics,and anime are farther ahead on paladins and rangers imagery than TTRPGs.
i'm far from opposed to the ranger having magic but i don't think that most of their core ranger abilities need to take the form of spells, in fact i think that's currently one of their main issues that so many of them are spells (another being the identity crisis that WotC can't seem to decide what a ranger is meant to be and how it's meant to do it, though i don't know how survivalist and specialist hunter is too complex a concept.)

*barring the caveat that WotC seems to find itself incapable of making decent nonmagic abilities.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Hunters Mark should be a class ability.

Yes, I know there are reasons why it's not, but frankly all of them ring hollow to me.

Hunters Mark shouldn't be anything at all IMO. I don't like it as a spell or as an ability, I don't think it is anything I would associate with the idea of a Ranger thematically.

The current Ranger leans too much into weapons, they really need to beef up the caster side of the class IMO. Tasha's was a start, but a lot of that is going to be undone I think.
 
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ECMO3

Hero
90% of the Ranger''s identity problem is TSR/WOTC/EveryoneElse's unwillingness to make rangery spells.

Video games, comics,and anime are farther ahead on paladins and rangers imagery than TTRPGs.

I don't know. I don't think I need any more "Rangery" spells on the Ranger, they have a bunch and most of the combat spells suck both mechanically and thematically.

I think they need more regular spells off of the Wizard or Sorcerer list. Things like Shield, Cause Fear, Blur, Shadow Blade and Lightning Bolt.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
I don't know Hunters Mark should be anything at all. I don't like it as a spell and I don't think it is anything I would associate with the idea of a Ranger thematically.
hunter's mark would be better IMO if it wasn't actually a combat spell, if it dropped the damage aspect (incorporate a damage boost into a separate baseclass feature) and leant more on the tracking/knowledge gathering/revealing vunerabilities/divination aspects of the spell,
 

Quickleaf

Legend
That works as well.

The Archivist cold be folded into the Avenger as the seeker of knowledge over the default Avenger's slaying seekers of forbidden knowledge or monster against the order's tenets.

Clerics could still want STR to smash the foul but focus on CON to stay alive to buff and heal.
Oh! I wrote a homebrew archivist class blending the 3.5e archivist class from Heroes of Horror, the Savant class from Dragon #140, the alienist variant in 2e’s Player’s Option: Spells & Magic along with its d20 version in Complete Arcane, 4e arcana skill powers, and few other ideas.
 

le Redoutable

Ich bin El Glouglou :)
but for me, Paladin is already a multiclass , like
Cleric ( Con x Cha )
Pilot ( Int x Dex )
Brute ( Str x Wis )
( ... well, something like that lol )

edit : with Brute = Tank ( of Corsa )
I may be wrong here, because not everybody is suited for a Brute counterpart ( which means it should be covered as a multiclass... )
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
That works as well.

The Archivist cold be folded into the Avenger as the seeker of knowledge over the default Avenger's slaying seekers of forbidden knowledge or monster against the order's tenets.
Do you one better: They're the maintainers of the "black archive" type stuff, in addition to being the ones who hunt down the makers of such things. Know your enemy, that sort of thing.

That's what I did with the effective Avenger-equivalents in my Jewel of the Desert game. They're the internal police of the faith--they very rarely do anything to ordinary laymen, instead focusing their attention on planar threats and wayward clergy who abuse their powers. In-setting, they're called the Asiad al-Khafyun, the "Secret Masters" or "Hidden Overseers." The predecessor organization itself went rogue a long, long time ago, so this one takes extra special care to ensure unwavering dedication, including magical brands on the flesh (in discreet but accessible places.)

When you aren't hunting down heresiarchs, you're keeping meticulous records of their doings, tactics, warped theology, etc. A dangerous job in a world of magic, but a necessary one when you can't rely on bolts from the blue to delete heresy the moment it shows up. For my Asiad al-Khafyun, their primary tasks have been to hunt down members of the predecessor organization that went rogue (the Zil al-Ghurab, "Raven-Shadows") and to prevent the spread of an infectious, parasitic spirit, the Song of Thorns, from its (effective) prison in the perpendicular plane of Zerzura. (As usual, adapted from the very excellent The Gardens of Ynn by Emmy Allen.) I've taken care to portray my version as very scary but really, really dedicated--carefully selected and put through training from hell.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
i'm far from opposed to the ranger having magic but i don't think that most of their core ranger abilities need to take the form of spells, in fact i think that's currently one of their main issues that so many of them are spells (another being the identity crisis that WotC can't seem to decide what a ranger is meant to be and how it's meant to do it, though i don't know how survivalist and specialist hunter is too complex a concept.)

*barring the caveat that WotC seems to find itself incapable of making decent nonmagic abilities.
We have to face facts that raw survivalism has stopped being popular in D&D since the 90s. That's why the druid and ranger and cleric and wizard have such powerful survival spells. And with rituals, the cost is gone and the genie is out the lamp.

The Ranger shifted from being a survivalist to a hunter. And with it new spells need to be made, not just remaking one ones:
  1. summoning a pack of fey or spectral hounds to follow a scent trail
  2. plating a tracker on a quarry with an arrow
  3. sending out bird-drones to scout and seek from the sky
  4. channeling animal spirits to
    1. climb like the goat
    2. run like the wolf
    3. swing like the ape
    4. swim like the shark
  5. use earth to send signals
    1. smoke signals
    2. sending stones
    3. signal fire "Now all of China knows you ate here."
    4. Fey Pony Express
2014's HIPS shows that writing a nonmagical version f what the ranger desires would be hard if you keep a few RL limitations. And "leave it up to DMs" doesn't work because 90% of D&D fans don't know how to track, hunt, or spy on advanced enemies.

Same but lighter issue with Paladins
  • No angel wings spells
  • No grim reaper spells
  • No Portal to Heaven spell
  • No Portal to Hell spell
  • No spells to ward off fiendish mind control
  • No spells to prevent vampirism
etc etc
 

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