D&D 5E Are Paladins Merely Mediocre Multiclass Fighter/Clerics?

[Ruin Explorer]

They could easily errata smite to only work once per turn. I've seennplayers with paladins blow all their spells and then demand long rests in 1-2 encounters. Or be semi useless for rest of the day.

That's a patently silly objection when Full Casters exist and absolutely do the same exact thing, and are multiple classes in the game, not one class.

Any class with largely daily power can blow all their "good stuff" and then demand a rest. It's a nonsense to pick out Paladins for criticism there - at best it shows a lack of circumspection on your part.

In sy event I'll wait and see what the final result is. If it's that big a deal one can stick with 5E.

That illustrates the problem - there are few other tweaks/changes to the Paladin class, and particularly few positive ones - right now, based on current 2024, you'd have to be silly to run a 2024 Paladin if 2014 Paladins are still legal, and WotC swear blind that 2014 ones are still legal.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's a patently silly objection when Full Casters exist and absolutely do the same exact thing, and are multiple classes in the game, not one class.

Any class with largely daily power can blow all their "good stuff" and then demand a rest. It's a nonsense to pick out Paladins for criticism there - at best it shows a lack of circumspection on your part.

Casters can generally blow one or two spells a round.
Paladins 5 or 6.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Casters can generally blow one or two spells a round.
Paladins 5 or 6.

5 or 6? How? Explain in detail with specific examples, or admit that's made-up hyperbolic shenanigans.

Most Paladins can, at best, blow 2-3 spells in a round, and that's assuming they hit with all their attacks, which is extremely unlikely against a serious foe.

Further, Full Casters can and do blow their very limited "top slots" - i.e. their most powerful spells, and then demand a rest - and they're just as "nerfed" as Paladins by doing that. Pretending they can't/don't is just disingenuous and unhelpful to discussion because we all know it's nonsense. I've personally seen that happen far more often, even just counting 5th (but it's always been a thing, except in 4E).

 

[Zardnaar]

5 or 6? How? Explain in detail with specific examples, or admit that's made-up hyperbolic shenanigans.

Most Paladins can, at best, blow 2-3 spells in a round, and that's assuming they hit with all their attacks, which is extremely unlikely against a serious foe.

Further, Full Casters can and do blow their very limited "top slots" - i.e. their most powerful spells, and then demand a rest - and they're just as "nerfed" as Paladins by doing that.

Haste, action surge, polearm master, reaction attacks.

PAM can reliably do 4 per round no haste or action surge required.

And yes I have seen PAM paladins and mid level paladins nova off or have things like Sorcerers twin haste on them. Iirc one of the Paladibs can cast haste.

Fighter dip two levels is easy as well.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Haste, action surge, polearm master, reaction attacks.

Action surge? Something that Paladins don't even have. Haste a spell that someone else has to cast on them. You're proving my point about it being a ridiculous scenario, involving multiclassing and outside buffers casting bad buff spells.

PAM can reliably do 4 per round no haste or action surge required.

No, it can't.

Paladins get 2 attacks per round from 5th onwards, +1 Bonus Action which PAM lets them use if they have PAM - they probably don't have that until level 8 at the soonest, though.

You can never "reliably" get a OA so don't pretend. The DM has to cooperate.

And yes I have seen PAM paladins and mid level paladins nova off or have things like Sorcerers twin haste on them. Iirc one of the Paladibs can cast haste.

Fighter dip two levels is easy as well.

So really extreme min-maxers are your example?

Then you're still proving my point! If you're talking extreme min-maxers, then every Full Caster operates on a 5 minute workday.

 

[ECMO3]

Melee better on a rogue.

1. No -2 to hit via shooting through allies or other cover.

2. Uncanny dodge. Reduces damage your party is taking. Less healing overall.

3. You have hit dice. Use then.

4. Go ranged if you have to or are low on hitpoints or out of hit dice.

5. Dual wielding. Pseudo advantage/extra damage potential.

Add Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip damage to this! Virtually every melee Rogue has one or both of those now.

 

[Zardnaar]

Action surge? Something that Paladins don't even have. Haste a spell that someone else has to cast on them. You're proving my point about it being a ridiculous scenario, involving multiclassing and outside buffers casting bad buff spells.

No, it can't.

Paladins get 2 attacks per round from 5th onwards, +1 Bonus Action which PAM lets them use if they have PAM - they probably don't have that until level 8 at the soonest, though.

You can never "reliably" get a OA so don't pretend. The DM has to cooperate.

So really extreme min-maxers are your example?

Then you're still proving my point! If you're talking extreme min-maxers, then every Full Caster operates on a 5 minute workday.

Extreme min makers? 1 feat that gives you 3 attacks a round by level 5 and reliably grants you an OA?

Hastevis a forming enough spell thinking it has been known about since very early in 5E.

 

[ECMO3]

I don't know about Paladins regularly blowing 6 spell slots a turn, but they do run out of slots quickly if they are using them for smite and usually they are not getting nearly the effectiveness out of their slots that casters are getting, or frankly even what other half casters are getting out of their slots.

A full caster can blow their highest level slots quickly, but this generally is less quick than a Paladin, they get more effect when they do that and they still have slots left after that as good as the best slots a Paladin has. Finally those second tier full caster spells are typically more effective than a Paladin's best spells and a lot more effective than a Paladin's smites.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't know about Paladins regularly blowing 6 spell slots a turn, but they do run out of slots quickly if theyh are using them for smite and usually they are not getting nearly the effectiveness out of them that other casters, or frankly other half casters are getting out of their slots.

A full caster can blow their highest level slots quickly, but by any measure this is less quick than a Paladin does, once they blow their highest level slots, they still have slots as good as the best slots a Paladin has and those second tier spells are typically more effective than a Paladin's best spells and a lot more effective than a Paladin's smites.

Yup I'm finding this out in BG3 only smiting once a round. You run out very quickly.

You can nova off like a boss though.

Tabletop they seem to be saved for crits espicially vs fiends/undead.

 

[Clint_L]

Add Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade cantrip damage to this! Virtually every melee Rogue has one or both of those now.

No, they really don't. I don't have a single rogue who has taken either. I can't recall a melee rogue on an actual play show who took either.

I think you really overestimate how many folks are seriously into the optimization game. In my experience, players are far more likely to intentionally choose *sub*optimal builds that fit their character fantasy than they are to fine-tune for optimal damage output, or whatever.

Hyper-optimization is a totally valid way to play D&D, but it's not the way most people play.