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D&D 5E Cloak of Elvenkind - Advantage to Stealth AND -5 to passive perception?

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
You dont even need dim light with a DM ruling. You could have a guard in a brightly lit room, and [hide] and sneak up behind him staying hidden the whole way.

But generally (sans DM ruling, or a special ability that lets you hide in other circumstances) you need total cover or heavy obscurement to hide, and if you leave either, you are generally noticed the instant you do so.
well no Crawford has said you have a split second to make an attack even when revealed and still gain advantage on that attack.
 

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The Skulker feat lets one do this:
  • You can try to hide when you are lightly obscured from the creature from which you are hiding.
Mask of the Wild does this:
  • You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena.
Lightfoot Halflings can do this:
  • You can attempt to hide even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
AFAIK these are the only methods by which a PC can hide (or be hidden) when lightly obscured (barring DM ruling).

If you lose that obscurement, (the halfling wanders away from behind a M creature, the rain stops falling for a Wood Elf, or someone turns on the lights for a Skulker) you automatically cease being hidden (barring DM ruling).

Lacking those abilities (unless a DM rules otherwise) you need cover capable of concealing nearly all of you (or all of you), or heavy obscurement (such as thick fog, darkness or similar) in order to hide or remain hidden. Hiding behind a tree and peering through the leaves, or a sniper hiding on the roof of a building with a loaded crossbow, covering the street below are examples.

If the tree you are hiding behind is suddenly disintegrated leaving only a large pot plant, or the fog you are hiding in suddenly lifts leaving only light fog, you are automatically no longer hidden (unless the DM rules otherwise).

A creature without Skulker can not move down a hallway under direct observation and remain hidden, any more than a creature with Skulker can move down a brightly lit hallway under direct observation and remain hidden.

Why we have to continue this back and forth, when the rules are clear is beyond me.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
AFAIK these are the only methods by which a PC can hide (or be hidden) when lightly obscured (barring DM ruling).
The 10th-level ranger feature Hide in Plain Sight requires only a solid surface "at least as tall and wide as you are" to press yourself up against.
 
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Why we have to continue this back and forth, when the rules are clear is beyond me.

Probably because there aren't that many DMs who, for all intents and purposes, never let you hide from something you can see, thus questions regarding sneaking up behind somebody, sidling up to a hallway junction and peeking around the corner, and so on, are relevant to actual play.
 
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Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
That's already in the rules.

When you make an attack from hiding, you don't reveal yourself until after the attack is resolved (hit or miss).

Crawford was just clarifying that rule.
Right, which means it's not "noticed the instant." His clarification makes it clear he intended there to be a split second there, which is language not in the rules.

You keep declaring the rules are clear. Crawford also says it's intentionally the least clear, most vague rules they put in the game. That they had a very clear set of hiding and sneaking rules originally written, and it was so long and still didn't cover all the possibilities that they opted to scrap it for intentionally vague and shorter rules. So the fact we see so many discussions about this rule is because it's vague.

If this is a rule that's clear and settled in your mind, that's cool. But, I hope you understand why it's not clear and settled in the minds of many others, and they can discuss the variations they see in interpreting what they view as a vague rule?
 

I can't imagine stealth being broken just because a part of you is visible. Soldiers and hunters wouldn't need camouflage, I would spot everyone in a dark room, and I wouldn't miss all those speed limit signs when I go driving. ☺

This is exactly the kind of thing a perception check is supposed to resolve.
 

5e's ability checks are deliberately left open-ended because of how exploitable 3.5 was, not to give DMs an excuse for consistently shutting down players and disallowing them to do the kinds of things they've always been able to do in D&D.
 


Right, which means it's not "noticed the instant." His clarification makes it clear he intended there to be a split second there, which is language not in the rules.
A clarification that was unnecessary for people that understood the rules in the first place.

The rules said when you attack from hiding you dont reveal yourself till after the attack, and people were trying to read that text leading to result of revealing yourself before the attack.
 

Alternatively, I am and simply disagree with you?

No, that's not the case.

I mean you're right in that DMs can rule whatever they want (and decide what is appropriate for hiding).

But you're wrong if you think that the rules are to be interpreted in such a way that every Man and his Dog effectively have the better part of the skulker feat.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
A clarification that was unnecessary for people that understood the rules in the first place.
You're being needlessly insulting. It's not that you had a specially good understanding of the rules and your peers had a lesser understanding than you. It's that rules were left intentionally vague and some reasonably interpret it different than you do. Which isn't an opportunity for you to thump your chest like you've been doing.
 

It's not that you had a specially good understanding of the rules and your peers had a lesser understanding than you.
I disagree.

I was fervently arguing this is how Stealth and Hiding works (and invisibility etc) since day 1, and it wasn't really until MM did that podcast explaining how Hiding works that people really gave up arguing that the rules work differently.

The only thing I've been wrong about with Hiding was I read the rules as not allowing a Wood Elf to hide in light natural obscurement while under direct observation, and that took a FAQ to clarify that they could indeed do just that.

@Iry here is asserting that one can remain hidden - without Skulker - in dim light, falling snow, in an empty room full of creatures with darkvision or in light rain while under direct observation, and the rules just don't support that interpretation (short of the 'DM fiat' rule).

He's also making the case that when a Hidden creature enters Dim light, that it trigggers 'Perception checks' from nearby creatures, and that also is not the rule.

The rule is you're either Hidden or you're Not, and you remain hidden until you do something to reveal yourself (such as entering an area that lacks something to hide behind, or total obscurement, or making an attack, or otherwise revealing yourself) or until your opponent takes the Search action and finds you.

There are no 'perception checks' required when a creature leaves their hiding spot (such as entering an area of dim light from a hiding place). They automatically reveal themselves by default, unless the DM rules otherwise.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I disagree.
Obviously.

Maybe listen more?

There are no 'perception checks' required when a creature leaves their hiding spot (such as entering an area of dim light from a hiding place). They automatically reveal themselves by default, unless the DM rules otherwise.
Right, but since the rule IS DM discretion based, you're not saying anything meaningful. There is no "default" beyond it being DMs discretion. DMs discretion isn't an exception to the rule, it is the basic rule.

Which is why I say you're not listening. You seem really determined to tell everyone how you think it works, and equally reluctant to take other perspectives on that as seriously as you want us to take your perspective.

Which makes this not a conversation. Though the premise is that this should be a conversation where you listen at least as often as you express your own thoughts.
 

Right, but since the rule IS DM discretion based, you're not saying anything meaningful.
Then why debate any rule, seeing as all of them are DM discretion based.

Im not dissing @Iry or anyone else for ruling things however they want to rule things. In your game do what you want.

I'm just saying that the rules (read as a whole) do not support a baseline position whereby creatures can just leave places they are allowed to Hide in and just wander off, and still remain hidden, all while under direct observation.

I honestly wouldnt be surprised if @Iry also doesnt make invisible creatures take the Hide action to become hidden after becoming invisible. That's just a hunch of course.

@Iry care to elaborate?
 


I do require invisible characters to take the Hide action to become hidden. If they do not, others will know their square.
Then I admit I was wrong.

Three questions for you:

Scenario 1:

N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is outside and standing in light rain [light obscurement]. N is under direct observation from another creature (C) standing 30' away.

Question 1: Can N attempt to hide from C in this situation?

Scenario 2:

N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is hiding behind a lone tree. N steps out from behind the tree into the same light rain, and approaches C (still standing 30' away) who is looking at the tree and the direct surrounds of where he stands, facing towards the tree from 30' away (so while under direct observation from C).

Question 2: Can N remain hidden from C as he approaches him?

Question 3: If your answer to Q2 is different to Q1, why?
 

Iry

Hero
Scenario 1:
N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is outside and standing in light rain [light obscurement]. N is under direct observation from another creature (C) standing 30' away.
Question 1: Can N attempt to hide from C in this situation?

Scenario 2:
N [a creature without Mask of the Wild] is hiding behind a lone tree. N steps out from behind the tree into the same light rain, and approaches C (still standing 30' away) who is looking at the tree and the direct surrounds of where he stands, facing towards the tree from 30' away (so while under direct observation from C).
Question 2: Can N remain hidden from C as he approaches him?
Question 3: If your answer to Q2 is different to Q1, why?
1: No, N would have to find heavy obscurement or total cover to Hide from C.
2: (I'm assuming N has successfully hidden) I would make C roll a Perception check with advantage, because C is directly observing that area, and the result would determine if N is still hidden.
3: If C fails their perception check with advantage, something happens that causes him to miss N. He gets rain in his eyes, he thinks he saw something to the right of the tree, but N went left, he saw N for a split second but it was so fast... where the hell did he go?! Etc.

Presumably, N promptly stabs C, or startles C and starts a Batman Conversation.
C now stands for Commissioner Gordon. :geek:
 

2: (I'm assuming N has successfully hidden) I would make C roll a Perception check with advantage, because C is directly observing that area, and the result would determine if N is still hidden.
I understand YOU would make C 'roll a perception check as a reaction' to N moving out from his hiding spot, but that's not how the rules work.

The rules state that N is either hidden, or he's not. He remains hidden until he either does something to reveal himself (leaves his hiding spot, or makes an attack, or yells out or similar) or until C takes the Search action and finds him.

Those are the rules.

As soon as N leaves his hiding spot (he cant Hide in light obscurement remember) C is assumed to notice him because (as a general rule) creatures are aware of their surroundings and when you come out of your hiding spot, the rules default to you being automatically noticed by nearby creatures.

''In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.''

In our example C is not distracted. He is staring straight at N's hiding spot (a lone tree) from 30' away, and will automatically see N as soon as N leaves his hiding spot and approaches him.
 

Iry

Hero
The rules state that N is either hidden, or he's not. He remains hidden until he either does something to reveal himself (leaves his hiding spot, or makes an attack, or yells out or similar) or until C takes the Search action and finds him.

Those are the rules.

As soon as N leaves his hiding spot (he cant Hide in light obscurement remember) C is assumed to notice him because (as a general rule) creatures are aware of their surroundings and when you come out of your hiding spot, the rules default to you being automatically noticed by nearby creatures.

''In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.''

In our example C is not distracted. He is staring straight at N's hiding spot (a lone tree) from 30' away, and will automatically see N as soon as N leaves his hiding spot and approaches him.
N doesn't lose hidden until he is seen clearly, or makes an alerting noise. So the DM must arbitrate the circumstances. Otherwise you might end up with something silly like N standing right in front of C and doing cartwheels in dim light. A perception check is a reasonable way to arbitrate such a situation (even if the DC is Impossible, no roll required).
 

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