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D&D 5E Cloak of Elvenkind - Advantage to Stealth AND -5 to passive perception?

N doesn't lose hidden until he is seen clearly, or makes an alerting noise.
He's standing in light rain, with C staring straight at him, standing 30' away.

He can be seen clearly. Seriously go outside and try it for yourself.

You agree N cant hide in light rain under direct observation, so how on earth is N remaining hidden in light rain under direct observation?

A perception check is a reasonable way to arbitrate such a situation (even if the DC is Impossible, no roll required).
You can make whatever rulings you want. But the rules state that as soon as N leaves his hiding spot and enters somewhere he cannot hide, unless C is distracted (DMs call), C spots N immediately.
 
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Iry

Hero
He's standing in light rain, with C staring straight at him, standing 30' away.
He can be seen clearly.
You agree N cant hide in light rain under direct observation, so how on earth is N remaining hidden in light rain under direct observation?
The success of direct observation has to be determined. This is usually done with passive perception, but can be active searching if C is taking that action every turn. This can be further modified by circumstances that might grant advantage or disadvantage (+/-5 to passives).

I can stare as hard as I want, and still miss things.
 

The success of direct observation has to be determined.
No it doesnt.

Page 177 PHB:

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

Unless the creature is distracted (DMs call) when you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it sees you.

In this case the creature is NOT distracted. It is alert and staring straight at the lone tree (and the immediate surrounds of the tree) from a distance of 30' away.

There is no 'Perception check'. C automatically notices N as soon as N walks out from behind the tree and starts approaching C.
 


Iry

Hero
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

Unless the creature is distracted (DMs call) when you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it sees you.

In this case the creature is NOT distracted. It is alert and staring straight at the lone tree (and the immediate surrounds of the tree) from a distance of 30' away.

There is no 'Perception check'. C automatically notices N as soon as N walks out from behind the tree and starts approaching C.
You can't see clearly in Light Obscurement (light rain), it imposes disadvantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks. So when N moves away from the tree and through light rain, N has not come out of hiding. N is in far more dangerous circumstances and is far more likely to be discovered, but that is part of the Perception (Wisdom) check you are not allowing.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
You can't see clearly in Light Obscurement (light rain), it imposes disadvantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks. So when N moves away from the tree and through light rain, N has not come out of hiding. N is in far more dangerous circumstances and is far more likely to be discovered, but that is part of the Perception (Wisdom) check you are not allowing.
First, it's heavy rain that creates a lightly obscured area, just to get the fiction straight in this example. That heavy rain only imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight. I think this is often overlooked for some reason, and I see a lot of statements to the effect that it imposes disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks generally. This is not true.

Secondly, if N was hiding behind a tree (because of the obstruction to vision afforded by the tree) and then comes out from behind that tree, then N (assuming N is not a wood elf) is most certainly coming out of hiding because N has no ability to hide when only lightly obscured by natural phenomena such as rain.
 

Iry

Hero
Secondly, if N was hiding behind a tree (because of the obstruction to vision afforded by the tree) and then comes out from behind that tree, then N (assuming N is not a wood elf) is most certainly coming out of hiding because N has no ability to hide when only lightly obscured by natural phenomena such as rain.
The condition to end hiding is being clearly seen. If N comes out from behind the tree and is still in a situation where he is not clearly seen, then he doesn't stop hiding until he is clearly seen. This is usually accomplished by being noticed by active searching, running into someone with a higher passive perception score than your stealth check, or moving into an area with no cover or concealment. DM arbitration is really important in this phase, because it would normally influence the DM applying advantage/disadvantage or determining that the actions of N would make it impossible for him to continue hiding (like the previously mentioned cartwheels).

However, Flamestrike is not allowing DM arbitration.
This prevents either of us from making a perception check to determine if N is clearly seen or not.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
The condition to end hiding is being clearly seen. If N comes out from behind the tree and is still in a situation where he is not clearly seen, then he doesn't stop hiding until he is clearly seen. This is usually accomplished by being noticed by active searching, running into someone with a higher passive perception score than your stealth check, or moving into an area with no cover or concealment. DM arbitration is really important in this phase, because it would normally influence the DM applying advantage/disadvantage or determining that the actions of N would make it impossible for him to continue hiding (like the previously mentioned cartwheels).

However, Flamestrike is not allowing DM arbitration.
This prevents either of us from making a perception check to determine if N is clearly seen or not.
The condition to not be able to hide like at all in the first place is being clearly seen. If you are ruling that N can't be clearly seen due to heavy rain, then why couldn't N hide there in the first place? Why did N have to go behind a tree to hide?

Edit to add: I think I asked this up-thread but didn't get an answer. Where in the rules are you getting the idea that more is needed to begin hiding than to not be seen clearly?
 

Iry

Hero
The condition to not be able to hide like at all in the first place is being clearly seen. If you are ruling that N can't be clearly seen due to heavy rain, then why couldn't N hide there in the first place? Why did N have to go behind a tree to hide?

Edit to add: I think I asked this up-thread but didn't get an answer. Where in the rules are you getting the idea that more is needed to begin hiding than to not be seen clearly?
Mostly the existence of Mask of the Wild, Lightfoot, Skulker, etc. They outline exceptions that create negative space for what is default.
 

You can't see clearly in Light Obscurement (light rain), it imposes disadvantage on Perception (Wisdom) checks.
Not relevant because N reveals himself as soon as he comes out of hiding into a place he cannot hide (light obscurement).

If N was a Wood Elf, it would be a different story. He would not reveal himself when he left his hiding spot behind the tree and approached C in the light rain due to Mask of the Wild. He could walk straight up to C and C does not get a Perception check unless he takes the Search action to locate N.

So when N moves away from the tree and through light rain, N has not come out of hiding.
Yes he has come out of hiding. He cant hide in light obscurement any more than he can hide in bright sunlight.

The rule is, as soon as you leave a hiding spot (i.e. enter a place you cannot hide) you automatically reveal yourself UNLESS the creature you're hiding from is 'distracted'.

C is NOT distracted. He is closely observing the area.
N is in far more dangerous circumstances.
No, the rules are clear.

As soon as N leaves his hiding spot, and enters an area he cannot hide, he is automatically noticed by C unless the DM rules that C is 'distracted' (i.e. looking the other way).

Your interpretation leads to the absurd scenario where 20 creatures hidden in a distant room, could walk down a 30' long and 10' wide hallway which is under direct observation (by a creature with darkvision and relying on that vision to see in the darkness) standing at the end of that hallway, and walk straight past that creature.
 

The condition to end hiding is being clearly seen.
No it is NOT.

Hiding ends when you leave a hiding spot and enter a place you cannot Hide, at which point you are automatically detected unless your target is 'distracted'.

The rules expressly say so:

In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

Hiding also ends if you make an attack, or make a loud noise or otherwise reveal yourself.
 

Mostly the existence of Mask of the Wild, Lightfoot, Skulker, etc. They outline exceptions that create negative space for what is default.
Those rules show you that the clear intent of the default rule is you cannot be hidden in light obscurement without a special rule.

Yet you're using the existence of those rules, to allow a creature to be hidden in light obscurement without those abilities!

The rule for leaving a place where you can hide, and entering a place where you cannot hide, is YOU AUTMATICALLY REVEAL YOURSELF as soon as you do so, unless your opponent is 'distracted', which in our present example, our opponent (C) is not.
 

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Mostly the existence of Mask of the Wild, Lightfoot, Skulker, etc. They outline exceptions that create negative space for what is default.
Those features use the language "attempt to hide" or "try to hide", so the negative space would be that other creatures can't try/attempt to hide under those less than heavily obscured conditions, yes? Would you then say that when N comes out from behind his/her tree into the lightly obscured area of heavy rain that s/he is no longer trying/attempting to hide but is doing something else that maintains his/her status as hidden?
 

Iry

Hero
Those features use the language "attempt to hide" or "try to hide", so the negative space would be that other creatures can't try/attempt to hide under those less than heavily obscured conditions, yes? Would you then say that when N comes out from behind his/her tree into the lightly obscured area of heavy rain that s/he is no longer trying/attempting to hide but is doing something else that maintains his/her status as hidden?
Yeah, they can't try/attempt to Hide under less than heavily obscured / total cover conditions. And yes, when N comes out from behind his/her tree, N remains hidden until seen clearly or s/he makes some noise. If N is discovered, s/he cannot hide again without going back into somewhere heavily obscured / total cover. I don't think of it as "doing something else", but as a condition that continues until (revealing) conditions are met.
 

Iry

Hero
If N was a Wood Elf, it would be a different story. He would not reveal himself when he left his hiding spot behind the tree and approached C in the light rain due to Mask of the Wild. He could walk straight up to C and C does not get a Perception check unless he takes the Search action to locate N.
N doesn't reveal himself even if s/he moves into light obscurement because the conditions to end hiding have not been met.
Yes he has come out of hiding. He cant hide in light obscurement any more than he can hide in bright sunlight.
The rule is, as soon as you leave a hiding spot (i.e. enter a place you cannot hide) you automatically reveal yourself UNLESS the creature you're hiding from is 'distracted'.
Agree to disagree. You are free to make that interpretation at your own table, but I read the same rules as you and come to a different conclusion: You need to see someone clearly to end hiding. Light obscurement gives disadvantage to Perception (Wisdom) checks to see. Ergo, Light concealment does not allow you to see someone clearly by default. But I have no issue with the way you run things. Having fun is the most important thing.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
If you come out of hiding, which does not automatically happen just because you move into light obscurement. The creature has to see you clearly, which is usually resolved by a Perception (Wisdom) check, or passive perception check. You come out of hiding when you move out of light concealment / partial cover, choose to reveal yourself, or someone exceeds your stealth roll with their Perception (Wisdom) check.
YOU AUTMATICALLY REVEAL YOURSELF
Let's keep this civil, please.
 
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N doesn't reveal himself even if s/he moves into light obscurement because the conditions to end hiding have not been met.
The conditions HAVE been met. N cant hide in the light obscurement he is now standing in AND he has also just left his hiding spot and approached a creature that is not distracted andd is staring straight at him!

The conditions for N to hide are NOT met, and in any evet he triggers the rule on Page 167 of the PHB and reveals himself.

You're wrong on this one. You can rule it howeverr you want, but the rules on what happens in this situation are clear.
If you come out of hiding, which does not automatically happen just because you move into light obscurement.
But it doesnd hiding, because N cannot hide there. He's not a Wood Elf. You already agree with this!
The creature has to see you clearly, which is usually resolved by a Perception (Wisdom) check, or passive perception check.
Creatures with darkvision do not need Perception checks to notice things in darkness (light obscurement for them) if those things are not hidden, which N is not as soon as he leaves his hiding spot!

The rule I have cited to you three times now renders N no longer hidden as soon as N leaves his hiding spot and approaches the undistracted C.

The rule literally says this.
 

@Iry

10 Orcs (N) are currently hidden in a room at the end of a 10' wide and 60' long hallway. None of the Orcs have any special abilities that let them hide in light obscurement.

A lone adventurer (C) stands at the other end of the 60' hallway, watching down the hallway intently for the sign of any enemies. He is on watch and his friends lay sleeping in the room behind him.

C relies on his darkvision 60' to see the entire hallway, through the open doorway, and 5' into the room beyond (in which the Orcs are hiding, outside of the 60' range of C's Darkvision).

One at a time, the hidden Orcs each walk through the doorway, and down the hallway towards C, and then even go past C, in order to murder his sleeping friends:

Room2.png


The Rules say as soon as the hidden Orcs enter the range of C's darkvision (i.e appear on the other side of the doorway, 60' from C) they are automatically detected, as C is not distracted, which makes sense.

But you're saying the Orcs can literally walk through the doorway, and down the hallway (a 60' long and 10' wide hallway, that C is watching intently) and go past C, without C seeing them unless he 'makes a perception check' to do so?

That's absurd mate.
 
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Iry

Hero
You can rule it howeverr you want, but the rules on what happens in this situation are clear.
And I disagree. As I said, we've both read the rules on the issue, and we've come to two different conclusions.
I do think we've both laid out our positions in detail, and future readers can take that information and use it to make a decision in their own games. To those folk, I wish you the best, and hope this was at least a little entertaining. :geek:
 


Iry

Hero
And your conclusion leads to absurd results.
Mine doesnt.
Guess which one is likely right?
Your version and mine can both lead to absurd results when taken to their extremes, without allowing a DM to step in and arbitrate circumstances. The example is hilarious in the first place, because the situation you describe (where DM arbitration can't happen) only exists in Video Games, and not even they handle hiding the way you suggest.

It was funny that it came down to "Yes it does!", "No it doesn't!", "Yuh-huh!", "Nuh-uh!"
 

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