Clogged Combats

[Janx]

The guy's having trouble with a level 2 party. The problem is NOT with having thousands of rules and feats and attacks, and spells because a level 2 PC doesn't have that much.

A good many months ago, somebody on this board brought up some good numbers on how long combats took, and how he was using the RAW and running fast encounters. I agree with him. If 1 DM can run a FAST game using the RAW, and another DM cannot, then the problem lies in the DIFFERENCES between the 2 DM's games, both people and process*.

*originally, the old thread said "you're doing something wrong" but some folks don't cotton to that kind of plain speaking.

Now I described the adventure I played in to some degree, you know how many PCs, level, and what encounters we faced (stock critters, so the CRs are pretty low). If our game only took 4 hours and we followed the RAW, then our methods in applying the RAW seem to be pretty effective.

SO, the question is, EXACTLY what did your session consist of, and what were all the variables. What was different (besides players obviously). If your encounters had more or tougher monsters, that would make your game take longer than mine. If players were given more time to decide their actions, that would take more time, as well. Also, how long DID the game take? How long did combats take.

I know that we did 5 combats in 4 hours AND we did exploring and RPing. Though I don't have exact times, in all likelyhood, we did the combat in 3 hours (most of the 1st hour was ramp-up). 5 combats in 3 hours is 36 minutes per combat (and with the gaps between fights as we discussed plans and explored the dungeon, and divied loot, the actual combats took less time than that).

So now that we know your party makeup, what were the encounters, and how long did you play for the session? How long is "too long"

Janx

 

[Child of Hypnos]

Out of all the encounters ive run in the campaign, the most frustrating was a streetfight with 2 bugbears vs my lvl2 PCs, the whole thing took around an hour and a quarter.
A larger scale battlemat and using the index cards to keep track of initiative might speed things up a bit, but a simple combat shouldnt take that long.

the other encounter that was frustrating was a slightly more complex encounter involving a group of 4 war2, a Nec2 and a clr2 vs my 5 lvl2 PCs, that encounter should be moderately challenging, but it should not take almost 2hrs to resolve.

these are extreme examples but I feel that a combat shouldnt really last much more than 20 - 30 mins

 

[amethal]

A good many months ago, somebody on this board brought up some good numbers on how long combats took, and how he was using the RAW and running fast encounters. I agree with him. If 1 DM can run a FAST game using the RAW, and another DM cannot, then the problem lies in the DIFFERENCES between the 2 DM's games, both people and process*.

*originally, the old thread said "you're doing something wrong" but some folks don't cotton to that kind of plain speaking.

Me included. Our group like long fights so we'd take exception to being told we were doing something wrong!

For example, our last fight was between a Hezrou, an arrow demon, an 8th level yuan-ti pureblood sorcerer and 9 dretch verses three 13th level PCs (mystic theurge, half-celestial paladin and druid) and 6 low level NPC sailors. That's always going to take a while, especially since both sides were summoning stuff.

In my experience, delays mainly come from players not knowing the rules - and as a result either having to look stuff up, or not being sure what tactic to use.

[The main exception is now that we are high level (at least by our standards) I sometime have to stop and think about what tactics the monsters would use in response to the PCs actions. Especially when those monsters are often a sight more intelligent than I am.]

If the slow pace of the game is killing everyone's enjoyment, I suggest drastic measures. Players are not allowed to look anything up during their turn. If the PH is open on the spell they want to cast, or if they have prepared a "cheat sheet" of some sort that is in front of them, then they can read off it, but no page turning.

Anything the player doesn't know, the DM decides. If the DM happens to know the rule, then great. If not (and no DM can be expected to have all the effects of every spell
memorised) then the DM makes it up on the spot.

e.g. Player1 - My celestial badger tries to claw at the orc. I rolled a 14; does that hit?
DM - what's its bonus to hit?
Player1 - um, er, I have it here somewhere .....
DM - ok we'll say +1; the orc's chainmail manages to take the force of the blow.
Player1 - I'm sure its hit bonus is better than +1
DM - Too late for this round. Look it up in someone else's go. Player 2, what are you doing?

If something's really important, then let the player formally call a "timeout"; at the end of the session you can say "Player 1 needed 11 timeouts, when the others only had 4 between them" and you'll have identified the problem.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Out of all the encounters ive run in the campaign, the most frustrating was a streetfight with 2 bugbears vs my lvl2 PCs, the whole thing took around an hour and a quarter.

Can you be more specific about what actually is taking the time? Do players take a longtime to decide what to do; are they referencing rule books all the time (either to min-max a situation or out of unfmailiarity with the rules); are they taking too much time to jsut pick out their dice and roll? I can't see the circumstances under which a 2 bugbear fight should really take this long. I need more specifics to understand how that is happening.

 

[Child of Hypnos]

Can you be more specific about what actually is taking the time? Do players take a longtime to decide what to do; are they referencing rule books all the time (either to min-max a situation or out of unfmailiarity with the rules); are they taking too much time to jsut pick out their dice and roll? I can't see the circumstances under which a 2 bugbear fight should really take this long. I need more specifics to understand how that is happening.

thats my problem, i cant think of a reason why it should take that long either. theyre all experienced players bar one (the ninja hasnt played much), and theyre not even attempting anything complicated, the combat just seems to stretch interminably

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

the other encounter that was frustrating was a slightly more complex encounter involving a group of 4 war2, a Nec2 and a clr2 vs my 5 lvl2 PCs, that encounter should be moderately challenging, but it should not take almost 2hrs to resolve.

Roughly speaking:

4 warrior 2s = 4 CR 2 creatures
Nec + Clr = 2 CR 2 creatures
= 6 CR 2 creatures = 3 CR 3 Creatures = 1 CR 4 Creature

This looks an awful lot like an EL 4 encounter at the minimum.

This is, generally speaking, an appropriate "Boss type" encounter for a APL 2 party.

In other words, this shouldn't have been moderately challenging, this should have had a good chance for a TPK.

Perhaps this is where your problem lies?

 

[buzzard]

I have a reputation for being a fast DM around here, and it is deserved. In LG games I generally will always have my slot done well within the four hours allotted.

The key to fast combat is to keep people from dawdling and to know what you want to do with the antagonists. I think well on the fly so I can keep things going pretty quickly. I write all of the intiatives on the battle mat in front of me, and the players can see where they are in the order. As it comes around to people I call them off. I don't tend to have any problems with people taking too long. Of course I also know the rules pretty well and can cousel people pretty quickly on how actions work. Nothing will drag a combat down to a snail's pace like having to look stuff up in books. Make sure both you and your players are familiar with the tactics, spells and pertinent rules that come up often.

Since your players are still at low level, this should all be quite manageable.

buzzard

 

[Child of Hypnos]

it was an CR5 encounter and they weren't supposed to be able to win it, they were meant to run from it. ive told em not to expect to win every encounter.
That didnt stop 'em winning with out a single casualty though...
that warforged is unbelievable.

 

[Conaill]

So, what is slowing things down? Do your players just take a long time to announce their actions?

that's partly it - combined with the fact that their low level and don't do a lot of damage.

Hope I combined the right question and answer there...

CoH, could you give us some more info on where the problem lies? How many rounds in a typical combat, how many minutes per round per player? Do you tend to use many opponents with cover and mobility, or a single tough opponent, etc...

 

[Child of Hypnos]

the 2 examples ive given are both pretty much straightforward fights, the 2nd one was fought in the dark, with corresponding penalty on ranged attacks.
most of the combats have been like that. the warforged with his confidence in his AC strolls into the middle of the enemy where neither he nor they have any cover, and nobody has dodge or any feat that would make life complicated yet.

most of the time they just hit at eachother (and miss).
thats probably my problem really, every member of my group, (including me) consistently rolls badly.

I'll have to get someone to Exorcise our dice.