Close Quarters Fighting and Reach

[Balord]

Sure, your sword spends a lot of time in the area i threaten. But it is CONSTANTLY MOVING, darting in and out at me. A tentacle trying to grab hold of me is an entirely different story. Think of the scene in Lord of the Rings when the party is about to enter Moria and the creature from the lake with the tentacles is attacking Frodo. That creature definitely has reach, but because its tentacles are attempting to wrap themselves around Frodo, they are definitely within striking range. If Frodo had CQF, he'd be able strike and possibly damage that tentacle as it was tightening its grip, possible dealing enough damage to make its grapple attempt fail and allow for Frodo to escape.

Also, imagine if Frodo failed to resist the creatures grapple attempt. Since the creature itself is out of reach, does that mean Frodo has no chance of harming it while in the grapple? That makes no sense. The tentacle wrapped around him is definitely within Frodo's reach. It is also within Aragorn's and Boromir's and Gimli's reach, even though the creature itself is out of their reach, because the tentacle is now firmly attached to Frodo and is no longer darting around. Are you saying they can't attack that tentacle unless they move within reach of the creature itself? That makes no sense at all.

Permanent Damage? I didn't mean to imply that. I just meant normal damage, possible enough to foil the grapple attempt.

 

[Nail]

Are you saying they can't attack that tentacle unless they move within reach of the creature itself?

Yup!

Otherwise, what would be the point of having to move up to a target with a longer reach than you? You could say, "I just attack the trolls claws when they take swipes at me."

 

[Paragon]

Yup!

Otherwise, what would be the point of having to move up to a target with a longer reach than you? You could say, "I just attack the trolls claws when they take swipes at me."

the problem is attacking with claws does not provoke AOA. grappling with those claws does. the reach angle here is confusing people. if you have CQF and someone tries to grapple you, you get an AOA. period.

 

[Trainz]

Oh oh... I got it...

If someone tries to strike ya, the limb goes by purty darn fast. If someone tries to grab ya, well the darn limb has got to pretty much wiggle around you or whatnot.

Yup, that's how I see it.

Or or...

Don't overthink it too much and just say that you get the AoO no matter what. That's purty much the way the designer of the feat went with it.

 

[Philip]

If you look at the text from Complete Warrior, you can find the following text under Karmic Strike.

You can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent that hits you in melee. [...] The opponent that hits you must be in your threatened area, and this feat does not grant you more attacks than you are normally allowed in a round.

The Feat specifically mentions a threatened area as a requirement. Close Quarters Fighting and Elusive Target: Cause Overreach both do not. You could read this a support that both other feats do not need their targets to be in the threatened area of the feat user.

I remember several mentions of 'striking a creatures limbs' throughout some of the rules books, can't remember the exact references however. The hydra entry mentions that you can ready an attack to Sunder a head as soon as it bites you. I don't think this requires the hydra's body to be in your threatened area as well.

 

[kjenks]

An opponent can strike at a hydra’s heads from any position in which he could strike at the hydra itself, because the hydra’s head writhe and whip about in combat. An opponent can ready an action to attempt to sunder a hydra’s head when the creature bites at him.

Take these two sentences together. Must threaten to make any melee attack, including AoO and readied action/Sunder.

The only exceptions are (1) the whip, which doesn't threaten an area (therefore no AoO) but it can still make a melee attack, and (2) that pesky Ellusive Target/Overreach.

 

[Nail]

This whole discussion has got me thinking: Every creature with reach effectively has an "lesser" Imp. Grab attack!

Consider a size large demon with 10 reach, but without the improved grab(ex) ability. If medium-sized opponent is 10 feet away, the demon can make a grapple attempt......and not provoke an AoO! After all, the medium-sized opponent doesn't threaten the demons space, and can reach the demon even if he could make an attack with an AoO!!!

The world just got a tiny bit nastier.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Yep - though if they want to hold, they must move forward into the opponent's square. If he has friends, the movement = reach to get him there will likely provoke at least one AoO.

 

[kjenks]

This whole discussion has got me thinking: Every creature with reach effectively has an "lesser" Imp. Grab attack!

Consider a size large demon with 10 reach, but without the improved grab(ex) ability. If medium-sized opponent is 10 feet away, the demon can make a grapple attempt...... and not provoke an AoO! After all, the medium-sized opponent doesn't threaten the demons space, and can reach the demon even if he could make an attack with an AoO!!!

The world just got a tiny bit nastier.

It's not that the large grappler doesn't provoke an AoO. It's more that the smaller foe doesn't have sufficient reach to take advantage of it.

So those medium-sized creatures need to wield reach weapons. Problem solved.

(But then there are huge opponents, 15 ft. reach.)

(And huge opponents with reach weapons, 30 ft. reach.)

 

[Nail]

Right.....Large-sized grapplers are the least of your worries.

Espeically after CR 7 or so, many of the monsters are size huge. But Patryn's right --> they still will probably provoke AoOs from the fellow's party members.