Cloud of Bewilderment (SC) - Too strong for a 2nd level spell?

[Rvdvelden]

The most foolproof method of testing it's brokenness in my opinion is: test it on the PCs.

If they encounter a wizard that uses a similar tactic (he's got high Int, he could've figured such a tactic out himself) and cry about it, you know it's broken and you can confront the player with the reaction of his fellow players. If it doesn't seem to suddenly take them down with ease, it's probably not broken and you just had some bad luck.

 

[satori01]

Cloud of Bewilderment is a very good spell, (as an aside it is even more Powerful in Neverwinter Nights 2 as it gives the Stunned condition rather than Nauseated).

For an Adventure Path I would say do not sweat it, there will be plenty of other combats.
I foresee a Sculpted Cloud of Bewilderment & Sculpted Black Tentacles in your future though....

Being limited to just a move action in an everything but the kitchen sink game, is not a debilitating as in Core. There are many feats, manuevers, Spells that are Swift, Move, or Immediate actions. A general rule of advice is if your players are tricked out, you need to trick out the climactic battles as well....especially for spell casters.

Also clearly the spell will not work on undead. Given that it is a static spell that effects anyone that enters the cloud, you can also have monsters use it to great benefit, (in my own game, I have had a Large Monk throw the PCs into the effect).
I do not have my book handy, but if the spell is actually a cloud and dispersible, Gust of Wind will get rid of it. I am assuming for your own party everyone goes ranged weapons when the spell is cast? Otherwise, beyond obviously taking a move action to get away, I would try to move the monster to a position where the melee PCs also have to risk being effected by the spell. In the case of the Grell, would the grappled PC also not have been effected? Nauseated + Nauseated + Grapple would equal Dropped PC in my book.

Sculpt spell as a feat seems too powerful here.....I might just be remembering the Archmage power, but I thought Sculpt Spell allowed you to add little breaks in a spell, (allowing you to cast a fireball w/out burning the fighter) and change a cylinder to a line etc.

 

[Zurai]

Sculpt spell as a feat seems too powerful here.....I might just be remembering the Archmage power, but I thought Sculpt Spell allowed you to add little breaks in a spell, (allowing you to cast a fireball w/out burning the fighter) and change a cylinder to a line etc.

That's Mastery of Shaping, the Archmage High Arcana power.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Cloud of Bewilderment is a very good spell, (as an aside it is even more Powerful in Neverwinter Nights 2 as it gives the Stunned condition rather than Nauseated).

For an Adventure Path I would say do not sweat it, there will be plenty of other combats.
I foresee a Sculpted Cloud of Bewilderment & Sculpted Black Tentacles in your future though....

Being limited to just a move action in an everything but the kitchen sink game, is not a debilitating as in Core. There are many feats, manuevers, Spells that are Swift, Move, or Immediate actions. A general rule of advice is if your players are tricked out, you need to trick out the climactic battles as well....especially for spell casters.

Also clearly the spell will not work on undead. Given that it is a static spell that effects anyone that enters the cloud, you can also have monsters use it to great benefit, (in my own game, I have had a Large Monk throw the PCs into the effect).
I do not have my book handy, but if the spell is actually a cloud and dispersible, Gust of Wind will get rid of it. I am assuming for your own party everyone goes ranged weapons when the spell is cast? Otherwise, beyond obviously taking a move action to get away, I would try to move the monster to a position where the melee PCs also have to risk being effected by the spell. In the case of the Grell, would the grappled PC also not have been effected? Nauseated + Nauseated + Grapple would equal Dropped PC in my book.

Sculpt spell as a feat seems too powerful here.....I might just be remembering the Archmage power, but I thought Sculpt Spell allowed you to add little breaks in a spell, (allowing you to cast a fireball w/out burning the fighter) and change a cylinder to a line etc.

Yeah, in future climactic combats I plan on tricking up the bad guys with some non core stuff. However, with the SCAP being considered a challenging meat grinder and Kazmojen looking pretty stong on paper I didn't change much with him. The fight was won when he failed his save vs the Cloud of Bewilderment.

In order to give Kazmojen a chance to stop vomiting I moved him 1 square, drawing 2 AoO's. With an AC in the low 20's the PC's needed pretty good rolls to hit so I thought he would be ok. Unfortunately both PC's rolled 15+ and he got hurt pretty badly. Not to worry. His Fast Healing 5 would see him recover soon enough. Nope. The next round the greatsword wielding Hexblade rolled another 15+ to hit and did enough damage to kill him.

So really it was the CoB, combined with 3 consecutive good to-hit rolls that ended the fight. However, if it wasn't for the CoB I wouldn't have had to move Kazmojen in the first place. The failed save and those 2 hits on the AoO really made the difference between a quick fight and a long, drawn out battle.

Since the CoB is only a 10ft cube the PC's generally just stand next to the affected squares and attack the baddies with melee weapons. That way they don't have to make saving throws but they can still get an AoO if the baddie tries to move away or out of the CoB. The Grell combat was a little different since it was in the air at the time. In that instance a couple of PC's did use ranged weapons.

In the Grell combat the PC made his save but the Grell failed. So the Grell was nauseated but the PC still couldn't roll high enough to escape the grapple.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Switch campaigns to Age of Worms.

Why do you say that? Not that it will matter. We're all having a blast playing Shackled City, although I did expect that at least one PC would have bitten the dust so far.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Infiniti2000]

So really it was the CoB, combined with 3 consecutive good to-hit rolls that ended the fight.

Also, the three consecutive miss chance rolls they made contributed (a little more than a 50% chance). So, to get three 15+ rolls (/20) and three 21+ rolls (/100) is less than a 2% chance. So, if that's what it took to end the fight, then they were very lucky.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Also, the three consecutive miss chance rolls they made contributed (a little more than a 50% chance). So, to get three 15+ rolls (/20) and three 21+ rolls (/100) is less than a 2% chance. So, if that's what it took to end the fight, then they were very lucky.

The half-troll wasn't in the Cloud when he copped the third hit. You are right though, it was a lucky series of rolls the 2 players made.

However, even if a couple of the AoO's missed the half-troll still would have been in trouble. He was going to be nauseated for another 2 rounds before he could attack again so the PC's had a few more opportunities to hit him before he could return fire.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Zurai]

Why do you say that? Not that it will matter. We're all having a blast playing Shackled City, although I did expect that at least one PC would have bitten the dust so far.

Olaf the Stout

Age of Worms is filled to the brim with undead, which are, of course, immune to nausea.

 

[Jack Simth]

The funny thing is that in the second combat (the one with the half-troll) the player in question cast sculpted versions of both Glitterdust and Cloud of Bewilderment. He really is able to pick the most effective spells.

... so he's got his Will save or Lose, and his Fort save or lose. Now all he needs is his Reflex Save or Lose spell (Web, also a 2nd level Conjuration spell...) and he's pretty much set.

Hmm.

Conjourer specialist ... and he's using tricks for a +0 Metamagic version of Sculpt Spell, taking no-SR save or Lose spells in his specialty.

This guy is liable to be a monster if he continues to pick his spells that well.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

All I can say is this guy is a definitely a powergamer (not that there's anything bad or wrong about that). He's really good at finding the most effective feats, spells, etc., to take, at least compared to my other players.

He's studying at university and doesn't work so he has plenty of time to go through the various rulebooks to find the best combos he can for whatever it is he wants to do. You won't be surprised to know that he has his entire 20-level build already planned out.

It's good in some ways though. It keeps me on my feet and forces me to get more creative with the challenges I put the party up against.

I did let him know about the errata which means he won't be able to cast sculpted 2nd level spells until he learns 5th level spells. That will help things a little. That will mean the there will only be 1 10ft cloud instead of 4.

Olaf the Stout