Cloud of Bewilderment (SC) - Too strong for a 2nd level spell?

[Darklone]

Good way to challenge a strong player (if you like him to be that strong): increase the number of encounters/day. He will be able to shine a lot but the others will have some mileage too.

 

[Folly]

I agree with Darklone here. Using two of your highest level spell to end an encounter is particularly effective, but at the same time it taps the players resources.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's good in some ways though. It keeps me on my feet and forces me to get more creative with the challenges I put the party up against.

I personally see no good in that at all. It creates two, very significant problems. (1) Anything that seriously challenges the one powerbuild would kill the rest of the party. We experienced this one first hand when the cleric and barbarian were so strong that anything that could withstand the first round or two would wind up killing or almost killing the remaining party members. That pretty much sucked. (2) I certainly don't want to spend all my free time trying to compete with tweaked out builds. I don't need or want a superbuild that has a purpose of keeping me on my feet. I have much better (meaning far more interesting and fun) things to do than to try to keep up with such builds.

That said, if that's your style and you like, more power to you!

 

[Zurai]

(1) Anything that seriously challenges the one powerbuild would kill the rest of the party.

Not necessarily true, especially when the power build is a spellcaster. Throw something like a Nishruu against them (magic-eater) and watch the wizard squirm while the other party members aren't affected nearly so much.
Also, not all challenges are combat-oriented, and even the combat-oriented challenges don't have to be challenges to the death. Bleeding off his resources with a series of hit-and-run kobold ambushes is an example of the latter; negotiating with the kobold king after he surrounds the party with 30 of his minions is an example of the former.
There are always ways of challenging individual party members without overwhelming the party.

(2) I certainly don't want to spend all my free time trying to compete with tweaked out builds. I don't need or want a superbuild that has a purpose of keeping me on my feet. I have much better (meaning far more interesting and fun) things to do than to try to keep up with such builds.

The OP's player's character is hardly "tweaked out" or a "superbuild". It just uses intelligent spell choices. Save-or-lose is a fact of life in 3.5. There are save-or-lose spells as low as 1st level (grease, sleep, color spray to name three). Intelligent players of wizards take those spells. It's got nothing to do with being a superbuild. It's hard to have a superbuild at such a low level that a level 2 spell is the pinnacle of his magical might, anyhow, unless you're talking about Pun-Pun.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

For what it's worth, victims of this spell can at least take a partial charge action each round, so they're still not offensively crippled, just likely subject to alot more AoO's.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#charge

Relevant text:
"If you are able to take only a standard action or a move action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed). You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action or move action on your turn."

 

[Infiniti2000]

Not necessarily true, especially when the power build is a spellcaster. ... There are always ways of challenging individual party members without overwhelming the party.

My experience was in fact with a spellcaster as I noted above. Okay, yeah sure there are a few ways but they require a lot of effort on the part of the DM and they will get old quick. The fact is that the normal (average) encounter will either be easy or deadly, and not somewhere comfortably in between (i.e. not generally fun).

The OP's player's character is hardly "tweaked out" or a "superbuild". It just uses intelligent spell choices. Save-or-lose is a fact of life in 3.5. There are save-or-lose spells as low as 1st level (grease, sleep, color spray to name three). Intelligent players of wizards take those spells. It's got nothing to do with being a superbuild. It's hard to have a superbuild at such a low level that a level 2 spell is the pinnacle of his magical might, anyhow, unless you're talking about Pun-Pun.

It is most definitely tweaked out and, sure at 3rd he can't slay ancient red dragons, but he has the character planned out for the next 17 levels. That's a "superbuild" in the making and is a surefire sign of tweaking. But, like I said, that could be perfectly fine for some people. It's not for me and thus why I felt it beneficial to point out a couple of problem areas. If you can help with those, please do. If Olaf likes spending all his spare time creating bad guys that last for a few minutes in a no win situational fight against his tweaked out PCs, then good for him.

 

[Infiniti2000]

For what it's worth, victims of this spell can at least take a partial charge action each round, so they're still not offensively crippled, just likely subject to alot more AoO's.

I don't agree. You're forgetting the even more relevant text from the nauseated condition. The victim is not just limited to move actions, but also "unable to attack". Unless you consider the restricted (partial is 3.0) charge not an attack, then okay. Note that it doesn't say you can't take an attack action, but that you can't attack.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I don't agree. You're forgetting the even more relevant text from the nauseated condition. The victim is not just limited to move actions, but also "unable to attack". Unless you consider the restricted (partial is 3.0) charge not an attack, then okay. Note that it doesn't say you can't take an attack action, but that you can't attack.

Heh...I was just working with the "limited to a move action" part. Totally forgot about the no attacking condition. So, um...disregard my post. I'm sick with allergies, head's not working at 100%.

 

[Nifft]

Heh...I was just working with the "limited to a move action" part. Totally forgot about the no attacking condition. So, um...disregard my post. I'm sick with allergies, head's not working at 100%.

Illustration of the Sickened condition inflicting a -2 on Int checks provided by StreamOfTheSky.

Cheers, -- N

 

[moritheil]

It is most definitely tweaked out and, sure at 3rd he can't slay ancient red dragons, but he has the character planned out for the next 17 levels. That's a "superbuild" in the making and is a surefire sign of tweaking. But, like I said, that could be perfectly fine for some people.

Your reaction is a little surprising, since it's rare that I see people who don't have some idea of how their character (in any game they are committed to) would develop through 20.

If Olaf likes spending all his spare time creating bad guys that last for a few minutes in a no win situational fight against his tweaked out PCs, then good for him.

I really think you're overstating the problem a bit. If this was between PCs, sure - but the DM gets to deploy things at CR cost.