Cloud of Bewilderment (SC) - Too strong for a 2nd level spell?

[Infiniti2000]

Your reaction is a little surprising, since it's rare that I see people who don't have some idea of how their character (in any game they are committed to) would develop through 20.

I don't and no one in my group does. We prefer the organic approach.

I really think you're overstating the problem a bit. If this was between PCs, sure - but the DM gets to deploy things at CR cost.

I don't, but then again it's my opinion. Unless the DM separates the PC's, it's the DM's problem.

 

[Jack Simth]

It is most definitely tweaked out and, sure at 3rd he can't slay ancient red dragons, but he has the character planned out for the next 17 levels. That's a "superbuild" in the making and is a surefire sign of tweaking.

It can be; it isn't always. For the guy who's using metamagic reducers on the fort save or lose spells so that he hits *just* the people he wants, and is doing it at 3rd level (the person in question in this case), it likely is.

However, some classes almost require a fair amount of pre-panning to avoid accidental suckage - a Sorcerer, for instance, needs to be rather careful with the spell list - and when doing a 20-level spell list, you might as well get the feats, too. PrC's (if applicable, check the DMG, they're designed to be tightly controlled) follow. Wizards can afford to be more organic - they get to re-tool their spell list (which is usually about 90%+ of their power, 70%+ if using broken PrC's).

Other people just plan ahead so that level up is faster when the time comes (in case it's done in the middle of a gaming session) or so that you can chat with the DM about permitted sources and specific things in advance.

 

[Infiniti2000]

However, some classes almost require a fair amount of pre-panning to avoid accidental suckage - a Sorcerer, for instance, needs to be rather careful with the spell list ...

Thank God for the PHII, then, because that's no longer necessary.

 

[moritheil]

It's partly powergaming, but it's largely metagame concerns, as Jack Smith alludes to:

Other people just plan ahead so that level up is faster when the time comes (in case it's done in the middle of a gaming session) or so that you can chat with the DM about permitted sources and specific things in advance.

 

[Jack Simth]

Thank God for the PHII, then, because that's no longer necessary.

Yes, because being able to trade out two spells on level up so helps when you won't level up until after you've beaten this large dungeon. It expands the swap-out rate considerably (in two levels, you can change out five spells now, rather than one) but it doesn't fundamentally change the need for planning on what you'll need.

 

[Infiniti2000]

It's partly powergaming, but it's largely metagame concerns, as Jack Smith alludes to:

I ignored that because planning a level up for the upcoming session is clearly not the same thing as planning out 20 levels of a character, which I see a lot of people doing. It's like comparing prerolling damage dice along with your attack roll to prerolling all attack rolls for the remainder of the character's existence.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes, because being able to trade out two spells on level up so helps when you won't level up until after you've beaten this large dungeon.

I don't understand your point. In no case can a sorcerer trade out spells while in the middle of some large dungeon, so exactly what does that mean to my comments? Since we're talking about 17+ level planning, I would hope your point somehow relates to that. Are you suggesting, therefore, that you need to plan ahead for 17+ levels to beat some large dungeon way in the future and that without such planning it wouldn't be possible? I just plain don't have a clue where you were going with this line of reasoning.

It expands the swap-out rate considerably (in two levels, you can change out five spells now, rather than one) but it doesn't fundamentally change the need for planning on what you'll need.

I beg to differ, it changes it drastically. Also, don't forget the changing of feats and skills.

 

[Darklone]

I´m a little bit surprised why a spell with a 10ft cube causes so much trouble...

as mentioned above, I tend to many encounters with many opponents. That helps a lot with ground control and save or die spells.

 

[Jack Simth]

I don't understand your point. In no case can a sorcerer trade out spells while in the middle of some large dungeon, so exactly what does that mean to my comments? Since we're talking about 17+ level planning, I would hope your point somehow relates to that. Are you suggesting, therefore, that you need to plan ahead for 17+ levels to beat some large dungeon way in the future and that without such planning it wouldn't be possible? I just plain don't have a clue where you were going with this line of reasoning.

After a fashion.

At low levels, most things don't have many immunities, and the randomness of the dice dominates the save/no save question.

At Mid+ levels, immunities are fairly common, and the static modifiers dominate the save/no save question.

If you don't plan ahead for this shift, at least somewhat, you're going to end up hurting for it at some point. Sure, with the extra splatbook, you can swap out two spells the next time you level up... if your DM permits that particular source. Further, it still doesn't help you now, and you also need to be assured that the new ones are going to do well, too, in conjunction with your old. If you haven't planned ahead, though, there's no particular reason why you'll be able to expect to do something an arbitrary opponent... and it's no fun being useless. Someone who does plan ahead, can be reasonably sure they'll be able to do something useful against an arbitrary opponent.

I beg to differ, it changes it drastically. Also, don't forget the changing of feats and skills.

Why shouldn't I? The swap out of feats and skills is mutually exclusive with the swap out of spells at any given point. And for a Sorcerer, the spells are usually considerably more important to the build than the feats and skills.

 

[Nifft]

I´m a little bit surprised why a spell with a 10ft cube causes so much trouble...

With the feat, it's suddenly four 10 ft. cubes.

Cheers, -- N