Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Xorn]

Look, the guy posts an obviously loaded idea, that he had no intention of discussing, before finishing with, "Discuss."

He then proceeded to smash the same eyes-closed interpretation of the rules over and over before stopping. I'm not going to call it a troll post, but a discussion would have started with a full explanation of their interpretation, not quick, snarky responses that just repeat the same thing over and over.

He got two pages out of it. Amateur hour compared to the Dagger Mastery warlock posts.

 

[Ximenes088]

Not really. A minion's defenses are such that any given attack against them is looking at about a 50% chance of missing, with some variance either way. They're not intended to be popcorn you can take out in one round unless you've got abilities keyed to autohit- like Cloud of Daggers. Regular attacks will quite regularly miss them, eating your entire turn.

 

[Mistwell]

Not really. A minion's defenses are such that any given attack against them is looking at about a 50% chance of missing, with some variance either way. They're not intended to be popcorn you can take out in one round unless you've got abilities keyed to autohit- like Cloud of Daggers. Regular attacks will quite regularly miss them, eating your entire turn.

Pretty much every class has an at-will power that will let you kill a minion on odds much better than 50%.

 

[IanB]

Not really. A minion's defenses are such that any given attack against them is looking at about a 50% chance of missing, with some variance either way. They're not intended to be popcorn you can take out in one round unless you've got abilities keyed to autohit- like Cloud of Daggers. Regular attacks will quite regularly miss them, eating your entire turn.

In my experience so far, almost nobody ever 'wastes' their turn on a single target swing against a minion, unless using Cloud of Daggers.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

I would have to rule that the "Cloud of Daggers" damage will not kill a minion. I have seen people bring up the "Cleave" damage killing a minion. This is true but the "Cleave" damage is preceded by a HIT.

The end of the "Minion" description in the MM Pg 282 is why I would rule this way: "However, if a Minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage"

Maybe we will see an errata on this at some point. But this is just how I look at it.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

Well, the difference would be that by not entering the cloud of daggers they could not die, so it turns from an autokill to a "block area". I actually don't know which is the best way to run it - letting it autokill minions without possibility to escape makes it quite powerful - I might rule that it doesn't damage when one starts a turn in it, but as soon as one enters another square than the one one started in (or one stays in place), one takes damage. (So it can only autokill one minion each turn, by centering on him. All others must be hit, or they get a chance to run away. And if fighter is locking them and marking them, running away might kill them..)

I'm not sure I 100% understand what your saying. Are you saying that as soon the minion moves out of the area or stays in place it dies? Because isn't that basically the same thing. Do you want them to have a possible turn first or something?

Regardless, just realize that you are making a house rule, not interpreting the RAW. This may have unintended effects.

 

[IanB]

I would have to rule that the "Cloud of Daggers" damage will not kill a minion. I have seen people bring up the "Cleave" damage killing a minion. This is true but the "Cleave" damage is preceded by a HIT.

The end of the "Minion" description in the MM Pg 282 is why I would rule this way: "However, if a Minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage"

Maybe we will see an errata on this at some point. But this is just how I look at it.

So no zone that deals damage will kill minions in your game?

Imagine if there was a power that just created a zone without an attack roll, and the zone was described exactly as the 'effect' field in the cloud of daggers description. Would that kill minions?

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

I would have to rule that the "Cloud of Daggers" damage will not kill a minion. I have seen people bring up the "Cleave" damage killing a minion. This is true but the "Cleave" damage is preceded by a HIT.

The end of the "Minion" description in the MM Pg 282 is why I would rule this way: "However, if a Minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage"

Maybe we will see an errata on this at some point. But this is just how I look at it.

Did you read my example earlier in the thread? How will you be handling it when the first target is hit by an attack and a minion wanders into the zone created by the attack? It is then preceded by a hit. Or with things such as firewall or cloudkill that create a larger zone that deals automatic damage.

 

[Mort_Q]

Minion Excerpt

Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) also destroys a minion. However, if a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.

I'm not sure why people are confused. The only damage that doesn't drop a minion is the damage listed in the miss: section of a power.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

I'm not sure people are confused.

Thank you MortQ, I knew there had to be an excerpt that explained it in concrete terms but I couldn't find it. Hopefully this will convince people. Although I think the OP has already realized he is wrong, which is why he stopped posting.

Edit: Thank God