Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Oompa]

At-Will

Arcane, Force, Implement

Standard Action Area 1 square within 10 squares
Target: Each creature in square
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Intelligence modifier force damage.

Increase damage to 2d6 + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.
Effect: The power’s area is filled with sharp daggers of force. Any creature that enters the area or starts its turn there takes force damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1). The cloud remains in place until the end of your next turn. You can dispel it earlier as a minor action.

When an creature in the square fails the attack roll, it doesnt do any Miss damage.

If the spell is cast in an empty square, and an minion enters it, it takes an minimum of 1 damage, like every character that enters it. For the effect you dont need to make an attack roll.

You only make the attack roll when you cast the spell on an creature..

 

[Lord Sessadore]

It is not curious at all. It is a straight forward reading of the rules.

My only assumption is that the effect is part of the attack. Which it is.

So then I suppose Healing/Inspiring Word is an attack which has a chance to miss? And you can miss with Elven Accuracy too (the power itself, not the reroll it grants - fine distinction)? And what about Cure Light/Serious Wounds? I suppose you can miss with those too then, since apparently the "Effect:" clause is part of an attack.

Examine your logic. What's the point of having an Effect clause if Hit and Miss already cover all the possibilities? Whatever follows the Effect: happens regardless of a Hit or Miss, and a dice roll of any kind has no bearing whatsoever on the Effect part of a power, by definition. Therefore, you cannot "hit" or "miss" with regards to the Effect of a power. As far as the Effect clause is concerned, there is no attack roll. It just happens.

 

[Klaumbaz]

So, the minion dies before it can do anything 99% of the time (the unholy hand of the BBEG being the exception).

so, the only real difference i can see are abilities that trigger upon death, such as a warlocks Pact boon. wether the fey warlock ports during the wizards turn or during the minions turn.

What's the big deal?

 

[NorthSaber]

The minion dies, because SadisticFishing is reading it completely wrong.

Actually I think he has a point, although I disagree with his interpretation of the rules. Other powers have the same type of problem, where it's unclear which part of the description is which, and what affects what. For example, the fighter encounter 3 attack Rain of Blows split the forums pretty evenly 50/50 whether it gives 3 attacks or 2+2, and the interpretation comes from whether the secondary attack is an independent thing or a part of the "hit" section.

I think the PHB is lacking a bit in examples of how things work, and some things could have been explained in a bit more verbose and precise fashion - this is one of those. The OP might not be right, but many others may be making the same conclusions, and those people might not have the benefit of forums like these.

 

[Doomhawk]

The "Effect" is part of the attack. The attack is a missed attack. Hence, no damage.

So, if I cast Spiritual Weapon and miss with the first attack, then since it's a missed attack, I can't kill minions with it in subsequent rounds, no matter how long I sustain the power?

 

[The Little Raven]

Other powers have the same type of problem, where it's unclear which part of the description is which, and what affects what.

It's completely clear.

Effect: Happens. Period.
Hit: Only happens on a successful attack.
Miss: Only happens on a failed attack.

For example, the fighter encounter 3 attack Rain of Blows split the forums pretty evenly 50/50 whether it gives 3 attacks or 2+2, and the interpretation comes from whether the secondary attack is an independent thing or a part of the "hit" section.

Rain of Blows seems pretty clear to me.

You make two attacks against a single target. If you're wielding a light blade, spear, or flail, you get to make an additional attack (note that it doesn't say two attacks in the secondary attack section, like it does in the primary attack section) against the same (or a different) target.

The OP might not be right, but many others may be making the same conclusions, and those people might not have the benefit of forums like these.

They need to read more carefully, then. It's clear that minions don't take damage on a MISS, and an EFFECT is not a MISS.

 

[KarinsDad]

So, if I cast Spiritual Weapon and miss with the first attack, then since it's a missed attack, I can't kill minions with it in subsequent rounds, no matter how long I sustain the power?

Ouch!

 

[NorthSaber]

Rain of Blows seems pretty clear to me.

You make two attacks against a single target. If you're wielding a light blade, spear, or flail, you get to make an additional attack (note that it doesn't say two attacks in the secondary attack section, like it does in the primary attack section) against the same (or a different) target.

Plenty of people disagree with you, though, just read the forums on the topic. And even if you're right, the fact that plenty of people disagree prove my point - there are rules in the books that aren't that intuitive and may be misunderstood no matter how many times you read the RAW.

I can totally understand why someone would think that Cloud of Daggers does nothing to minions if the attack roll had missed, although the implications would be silly (= if you cast it in an empty square it would do more damage to minions than if you cast it directly on them and missed). If you don't understand how someone could come to that conclusion, then there's nothing I can do to persuade you (nor would there be any point).

 

[Oompa]

Its quite simple..

If the attack misses the minion, it does nothing, if it is the minions turn it dies, why? because he starts his turn in the square..

Any creature that enters the area or starts its turn there takes force damage equal to your Wisdom modifier (minimum 1)..

So...

When cast and misses, nothing happens and when the minions turn is there, it dies..

Only the divine intervention of the BBEG can save the minion...

 

[The Little Raven]

Plenty of people disagree with you, though, just read the forums on the topic.

That's fine. People are wrong all the time.

And even if you're right, the fact that plenty of people disagree prove my point - there are rules in the books that aren't that intuitive and may be misunderstood no matter how many times you read the RAW.

Primary Target: One creature
Primary Attack: Strength vs. AC, two attacks

One target, two attacks. Clear as day.

Weapon: If you’re wielding a light blade, a spear, or a flail and have Dexterity 15 or higher, make a secondary attack.

If you're using a particular weapon, you get the secondary attack. Clear as day.

I can totally understand why someone would think that Cloud of Daggers does nothing to minions if the attack roll had missed, although the implications would be silly (= if you cast it in an empty square it would do more damage to minions than if you cast it directly on them and missed).

The attack does nothing on a miss, hence the reason there is no MISS entry. Thus, the minion-miss rule has zero application in this situation, since there is no benefit to missing.

However, the zone is not an attack in any way, shape, or form. It's a zone that deals automatic damage.

If you don't understand how someone could come to that conclusion, then there's nothing I can do to persuade you (nor would there be any point).

The only way I could understand someone misinterpreting something so clearly worded in the book is a reading problem.