Cloverfield - The Immortal's Handbook 4E to 3.5 Conversion


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Hey Khisanth matey! :)



Under normal 3E circumstances, I'd suggest a possible boost to either x4 HD or possibly x8, the latter assuming the Clover monster was a baby, the former assuming it was simply a young child. I think the x4 model definately suits best. Meaning that the adult would have about 500 Hit Dice and be 1000 feet tall (as a quodruped).

Shudder...

In 4E things are a tad different because of how I am using the Mega size rules.

In what book will those rules appear? I'm eager to see how absurdly huge things (Giga/Tera sized: were those Mountain/Planet or Planet/Star respectively?) work in 4e...


Thats true. But once they know that, the second time they can just keep blasting it, then chainsaw it into bits and lock them in a vault. If the vault is made of strong enough material I don't think the Tarrasque could regenerate beyond its walls.

Oh, I'm not saying the US couldn't beat the Tarrasque! I'm just saying that, IMO, Clover didn't display any defensive ability or toughness that the Tarrasque couldn't at least match. Going from the movie alone I'd pin it at low-epic, in the 20s CR 3e, probably right around 20 as a Solo in 4e.

But this might be a difference in 'expectations': I'd expect any decent CR20+ entity to be able to wreck cities and cause mass destruction in the modern world. Not sure anybody on modern Earth exceeds 5th or 6th level... probably not... and a Cachalot Whale (=Sperm Whale), Earth's largest and mightiest predator, is a mere CR7.

There is however, an undead monster in the Vampire Bestiary that could pass for the Clover monster.

Awesome... is it Mega sized? If not, are there any Mega sized (or bigger!) monsters in the Vampire Bestiary?
 

Hiya mate! :)

Thanks for the link.

Belzamus said:
I don't know if it'll help any, but Dicefreaks did a version of Cloverfield in 3.5, CR 40 (allegedly).

Dicefreaks d20 Community • View topic - Cloverfield d20 (Spoilers)

It seems to suffer from the same problems our version does, though.

Phaedros version isn't half bad at all.

I think theres a definite bonus to making the monster Macro-Fine, rather than Titanic as I was thinking (a direct conversion infers 125 Hit Dice rather than 128, but the added strength and higher damage dice are useful for big monsters like this). He could have probably given it 75 strength.

Did they ever do the Squealor monster for 3E? If so, it would be useful finding out its strength, size and Hit Dice as a good base to work from.

One mistake he has made is not to use Improved Natural Attack - that should basically be the first feat 'on the board' when making Giant monsters.

He also missed out on the Feeding Tubes attack, but I suppose theres no way of knowing about that one from simply watching the movie.

One thing I have noticed just there now is that there is no listed Bite Attack, which is presumably an omission, since its mentioned elsewhere in the text.
 

Howdy Khisanth dude! :)

Khisanth the Ancient said:
Shudder...

That would be interesting. In fact it would make a nice movie to see the Adult Clover monster invade Japan and all the other monsters (including Godzilla) have to gang up to defeat it.

In what book will those rules appear?

I'll have an abridged version in the Vampire Bestiary. There are two Mega-sized monsters in that book and one Giga sized monster.

I'm eager to see how absurdly huge things (Giga/Tera sized: were those Mountain/Planet or Planet/Star respectively?) work in 4e...

I'm trying to make them feel different but be as simple as possible. At the moment I have got the idea down to about six rules/abilities.

Oh, I'm not saying the US couldn't beat the Tarrasque! I'm just saying that, IMO, Clover didn't display any defensive ability or toughness that the Tarrasque couldn't at least match.

Well indeed. I was simply equating the american Godzilla with the Tarrasque because of their close resemblance, not because they are the same monster.

Going from the movie alone I'd pin it at low-epic, in the 20s CR 3e, probably right around 20 as a Solo in 4e.

Which monster is this for again?

But this might be a difference in 'expectations': I'd expect any decent CR20+ entity to be able to wreck cities and cause mass destruction in the modern world. Not sure anybody on modern Earth exceeds 5th or 6th level... probably not... and a Cachalot Whale (=Sperm Whale), Earth's largest and mightiest predator, is a mere CR7.

Yes but you have to look at what animals/monsters feed on. If its just eating plankton then it won't have to be too aggressive. A Great White Shark should be more than CR 7, as should a Killer Whale. Bears and Tigers should be about CR 7 ish.

Awesome... is it Mega sized?

Its multiple sizes (including Mega). It grows as it feeds. :)

If not, are there any Mega sized (or bigger!) monsters in the Vampire Bestiary?

There are two Mega-sized monsters, one being the Dragon which also has a Giga-sized version...its a Cosmic Dragon.
 

Which monster is this for again?

Clover. American Godzilla... I'd frankly put below CR 20. If a fighter jet can kill it, anyone who could cast meteor swarm could.

Assuming 1/4 ton TNT equivalent for a missile (those air-to-surface missiles seem to be 100+ lb explosives, but they're probably better than TNT), that's about 1/4000 of the energy of a Kiloton spell. 1/4096 the energy is 1/64 x 1/64, thus the damage should be 1/4 (1/2 x 1/2) = 10d6 fire and 15d6 bludgeoning. So a total of 25d6 damage, comparable to meteor swarm. The American Godzilla was seriously damaged before 2 missiles took it down, though; maybe a total of 500 HP or less, which with a Con of 29 (that of a tyrannosaurus (Con 21) increased to Colossal size) would put it at 36 HD (36d8+324, or 486 hp).

US Godzilla is right on the Colossal-Titanic border. Tohokingdom.com gives 500 tons as its weight, which is right for a quadrupled-in-size (2 size category increases, x64 weight) T.rex - a 6-8 ton tyrannosaur , x 64 = 384-512 tons. On screen it looks Titanic... but tails aren't supposed to be included, and Colossal tops out at 128 feet. I could see snout-to-hips length being about that. So it's a borderline-Titanic creature with an ordinary Colossal mass, so I'd make it Colossal. But building US Godzilla is the topic of another thread...

A Great White Shark should be more than CR 7, as should a Killer Whale. Bears and Tigers should be about CR 7 ish.

Sperm Whales aren't plankton-eaters, they're carnivores; they eat big squid (including Giant and Colossal Squid).

In the MM, a Killer Whale is CR5, Brown and Polar Bears and Tigers are all CR4. Tyrannosaurus is CR8, so I'd say that (going by the official animal stats) CR10 ought to be the absolute max for any natural our-Earth creature. So CR15-20 for the weakest kaiju types (Kamakiras, Rhedosaur from the Beast from 20,000 Fathoms, Wimpy American Godzilla, etc.), CR21-35 for middling-low kaiju (Spiega/Kumonga, Angurus/Angilas, Clover), CR36-50 for average kaiju (Ebirah, Rodan, most incarnations of Mothra, Battra, Megalon, Gigan, Toho King Kong), and CR51+ for the top guys (more powerful Mechagodzillas, Godzilla, Ghidorah in his various forms, the most powerful versions of Mothra) seems quite reasonable. Clover's tougher than the American Godzilla- but he'd not last 10 seconds against Real Godzilla. Clover's just a big tough animal, and not particularly strong for its size.

Its multiple sizes (including Mega). It grows as it feeds. :)


There are two Mega-sized monsters, one being the Dragon which also has a Giga-sized version...its a Cosmic Dragon.

Awesome!
 
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Hiya matey! :)

Khisanth the Ancient said:
Clover. American Godzilla... I'd frankly put below CR 20. If a fighter jet can kill it, anyone who could cast meteor swarm could.

Assuming 1/4 ton TNT equivalent for a missile (those air-to-surface missiles seem to be 100+ lb explosives, but they're probably better than TNT), that's about 1/4000 of the energy of a Kiloton spell. 1/4096 the energy is 1/64 x 1/64, thus the damage should be 1/4 (1/2 x 1/2) = 10d6 fire and 15d6 bludgeoning. So a total of 25d6 damage, comparable to meteor swarm. The American Godzilla was seriously damaged before 2 missiles took it down, though; maybe a total of 500 HP or less, which with a Con of 29 (that of a tyrannosaurus (Con 21) increased to Colossal size) would put it at 36 HD (36d8+324, or 486 hp).

One of my pet hates about the American Godzilla, is that it was basically just a big dinosaur, but wirse, that it failed to take into account that the physiology of a monster that size would have to be extraordinarily strong or it would just collapse under its own mass.

I remember reading an excellent article on stardestroyer.net where Mike Wong outlines why the american version is actually less realistic. Here is the relevant part:

Mike Wong said:
Hey, what discussion of B-movies would be complete without the almighty Godzilla? You can't help but love the big guy ... he crushes buildings, he has fire breath, and he shakes off artillery like a gentle rain. What's not to love?

But would he hold together? Godzilla has varied in size over the years, but let's look at his huge, 100 metre tall early 90's incarnation. That huge Godzilla is around 60,000 tons by most accounts, and if you scale him down to human size (accounting for his bulky shape) this figure seems plausible.

Now, would he hold up? When he stands, all of his weight rests on the bones in his legs. If we use the proportional thickness of the human femur as a basis for comparison, he would have to support his enormous weight on bones which have 3.5 m² of cross-sectional area at their narrowest point. And here's the bad news: 60,000 tons supported by 3.5 m² works out to a compressive stress of more than 170 MPa, or nearly twice the ultimate compressive strength of bone (note that I'm not even accounting for the fact that he can walk and jump, which will produce much higher stresses than merely standing still).

Moral of the story? Godzilla shouldn't survive. His bones should shatter, his epidermis should rip open like an overinflated water balloon, and his guts should spill all over the streets of Tokyo. Alternatively, if we decide to suspend disbelief, we can only look at him and speculate that he must have bones of structural steel and skin like armour plate. Oddly enough, this means that the more "realistic" fleshy and vulnerable Godzilla in the recent Matthew Broderick film is actually less realistic. If Godzilla exists at all, he must be quite literally built like a tank.

All hail Godzilla! King of the monsters.

US Godzilla is right on the Colossal-Titanic border. Tohokingdom.com gives 500 tons as its weight, which is right for a quadrupled-in-size (2 size category increases, x64 weight) T.rex - a 6-8 ton tyrannosaur , x 64 = 384-512 tons. On screen it looks Titanic... but tails aren't supposed to be included, and Colossal tops out at 128 feet. I could see snout-to-hips length being about that. So it's a borderline-Titanic creature with an ordinary Colossal mass, so I'd make it Colossal. But building US Godzilla is the topic of another thread...

I saw that 500 Tons, which sits at odds with the height range they listed of 197-295 feet. Thats ten times as big as a T-Rex which means it should weigh a thousand times as much (at least 6000-8000 tons)

Sperm Whales aren't plankton-eaters, they're carnivores; they eat big squid (including Giant and Colossal Squid).

My mistake I thought you meant Blue Whale.

In the MM, a Killer Whale is CR5, Brown and Polar Bears and Tigers are all CR4. Tyrannosaurus is CR8, so I'd say that (going by the official animal stats) CR10 ought to be the absolute max for any natural our-Earth creature. So CR15-20 for the weakest kaiju types (Kamakiras, Rhedosaur from the Beast from 20,000 Fathoms, Wimpy American Godzilla, etc.), CR21-35 for middling-low kaiju (Spiega/Kumonga, Angurus/Angilas, Clover), CR36-50 for average kaiju (Ebirah, Rodan, most incarnations of Mothra, Battra, Megalon, Gigan, Toho King Kong), and CR51+ for the top guys (more powerful Mechagodzillas, Godzilla, Ghidorah in his various forms, the most powerful versions of Mothra) seems quite reasonable. Clover's tougher than the American Godzilla- but he'd not last 10 seconds against Real Godzilla. Clover's just a big tough animal, and not particularly strong for its size.

If we use Hit Dice as a basis, and have CR roughly half Hit Dice then we end up with the following scale.

Medium Animal = CR 1
Large Animal = CR 2-3
Huge Animal = CR 4-7
Gargantuan Animal = CR 8-15
Colossal Animal = CR 16-31
Titanic Animal = CR 32-63
Macro-Fine Animal = CR 64-127

Most Megasaurs should be in the Macro-Fine scale, although earlier incarnations of Godzilla and others were smaller, I think the 100 metre figure is the current default.

Of course, many of the Megasaurs have "exotic" abilities that take them beyond mere animals.

However, a 148 Hit Dice Zilla (American Godzilla) having CR 74 does sit at odds with its destruction in the movie. However, as the Mike Wong text notes, that monster should never be able to walk in the first place. So if we assume it is strong enough to walk, then its skin, muscle and bones would be stronger than steel. Meaning those rockets should have just bounced off it.

In fact, re-reading his full article, I am now wondering if my size rules go far enough. Basically, the stress put upon something is equal to its size difference. So if Zilla was simply ten times bigger than a t-rex (for the sake of this discussion) then it would need to be ten times stronger than its comparitive strength (by that I mean, even after we add strength bonuses for size differences it still needs to be ten times stronger than that...basically +17 strength if I remember my 3E.

Large = x2 size, root x1.4
Huge = x4 size, root x2
Gargantuan = x8 size, root x2.8
Colossal = x16 size, root x4
Titanic = x32 size, root x5.6
Macro-Fine = x64 size, root x8
Macro-Diminutive = x128 size, root x11.2

New strength bonuses:

Large = +12
Huge = +25
Gargantuan = +37
Colossal = +50
Titanic = +62
Macro-Fine = +75
Macro-Diminutive = +87
Macro-Tiny = +100

Also note this takes into account the carrying capacity modifiers for size. If we remove those modifiers then each size category should have a +17.5 (round fractions down) strength bonus. Although I am not sure the carrying capacity mods should be negated.


:)
 


Hiya mate! :)

Pssthpok said:
Rockets and missiles don't "bounce off" steel...

Tank shells bounce off other tanks with armour measured in inches, Godzilla's arms alone will be about 15 feet thick!

...and remember this is flexi-steel, the flexibility of skin with the hardness of steel, so it will also have some absorption/deformation factors - so rockets could well bounce off him.

While eventually at some measure of power (since its all relative) his natural armour will be breached, I don't think it would be by typical munitions such as rockets and missiles. I'll have to work out whether or not a MOAB would affect him.
 

In fact, re-reading his full article, I am now wondering if my size rules go far enough. Basically, the stress put upon something is equal to its size difference. So if Zilla was simply ten times bigger than a t-rex (for the sake of this discussion) then it would need to be ten times stronger than its comparitive strength (by that I mean, even after we add strength bonuses for size differences it still needs to be ten times stronger than that...basically +17 strength if I remember my 3E.
:)

But most of that strength just goes into supporting its body. It won't be that much stronger *functionally* - won't be able to *apply* that much strength.

Smaller things are stronger for their size. Ants can lift 50 times their own body weight - but they're actually pretty weak. A human scaled down to ant-size could lift *more* than that; an ant scaled up to human-size would be too weak to move, or close to it - it would need major redesign to survive at even cat-size, much less man-size.

Godzilla is going to be weaker proportionallythan a T. rex.

Also, I'd say your Dire templates' HD increases (x2 / size category) are correct for Dire-type creatures, which are supposed to be not just bigger but nastier/tougher, but not for generic size increases. A creature's HD shouldn't go up with size quite that easily. That's the equivalent of an increase in HD proportional to the increase in linear dimension (both double each size category). The MM/SRD porpoise is 4 to 6 feet long and has 2 HD. A whale 100 feet long, x20 times longer, shouldn't really have 40 HD - realistically, the biggest whales probably shouldn't have more than 15 HD, probably less; they really were fairly easy to kill. A 40 HD whale would make whaling nearly impossible.

For non-Dire size increasing, I'd say x1.75/size category, rounded up - so a Colossal whale comes out as 19 HD. Since the tail isn't supposed to be included in determining the size category, a Colossal whale's pretty huge, so that's acceptable.

With that rule...

a Colossal lion = 26-27 HD
a Gargantuan rhinoceros = 24-25 HD
a Colossal rhinoceros = 42-43 HD
a Gargantuan elephant = 19-20 HD
a Colossal elephant = 33-34 HD
a Titanic elephant = 58-59 HD
a Macro-Diminutive brown bear = 172-173 HD

...which all sound reasonable.


--- (Godzilla biomechanics stuff, ignore if you don't care about it) ---

The 500 tons thing just might be plausible, let's see. If one were to go straightforwardly from a 6 ton T-rex, a 500 ton T-rex would be cube root of (500/6) = 4.36 times larger in linear dimensions.

But AmeriGodzilla isn't built like a T-rex; a 60 meter tall T-rex would be about 150 meters long, and I don't think AmeriGodzilla is. It's probably more like 6 times larger in linear dimensions, adjusted for the different shape. (If you ignore the really tall back spikes, which are not going to weigh much, it's probably skinnier than a big T-rex would be, anyway.) So a 6x linear size T-rex will be 1296 tons. Reducing it to 500 tons gives AmeriGodzilla a density of 0.385 - insanely low, but maybe possible if AmeriGodzilla has a crazy air sac system (like a bird's) and highly pneumatized bones. (As far as I know, the lowest suggested for any real-world critter is a little above 0.5 - some pterosaurs may have been that air-filled.)

The interesting question is - could a 500 ton biped walk? I'm not sure.
This study's powerpoint (by an actual paleontologist!) suggests that a 10,000 ton Godzilla would not be able to support its weight, even standing.

But a 500 ton G. is a different matter. Using those methods, if 500 ton AmeriZilla had articular area of 4 square meters per leg (seems quite reasonable, those legs are huge), the stress is actually less than on a big sauropod dinosaur. The trick is allometric scaling - the legs need to be ridiculously huge, bigger than AmeriZilla's even, in proportion to the body.

So, contra Mike Wong, I'm not willing to rule out a 500 ton biped as impossible in principle as a product of normal Earth biology. Dinosaurs didn't evolve one in reality - but given 100 million years or so of continual evolutionary pressure to get bigger, and near-infinite food supplies, the necessary biomechanical innovations are probably plausible.

---
Erm, that was probably a bit tl;dr.
 
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Pssthpok

First Post
Hiya mate! :)



Tank shells bounce off other tanks with armour measured in inches, Godzilla's arms alone will be about 15 feet thick!

...and remember this is flexi-steel, the flexibility of skin with the hardness of steel, so it will also have some absorption/deformation factors - so rockets could well bounce off him.

While eventually at some measure of power (since its all relative) his natural armour will be breached, I don't think it would be by typical munitions such as rockets and missiles. I'll have to work out whether or not a MOAB would affect him.

Hiya.

Well, how many inches of skin must you presuppose to have this bouncing effect? Sure his arms are thick, but 90% of that tissue is soft meat and inner bone.

And by tank shells, I must suppose that you don't imply armor piercing shells or high-explosive anti-tank weapons.
 

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