Clueless DM

[Elf Witch]

To me there is a big difference between in character disareement and inter party fighting.

In the first it is a matter of role playing and not all characters are going to agree all the time and to try and ban that is just stifling the game.

The second is where I draw the line. Whne you have characters wanting to kill other characters and they are angry with each other so they are not backing each other up in combat and are looking for ways to sabatoge each other the game stops being fun.

 

[Arnwyn]

So was I wrong in thinking that the DM did have a lot to do with this mess?

After reading the OP and your follow-up posts, I absolutely think you're wrong.

Just look at what you've wrote:

- "two of the players are hoarding magic items they find" = Bad (player).
- "her anger at the situation is coming out in character" = Bad (player).
- "he has allowed lone wolf behavior and rewarded it, one of the players is going off on his own a lot and doing things wothout including the others now this DM does not like to railroad his players so he has gone along with it" = Bad (DM).
- "because it is what my character would do" = Bad (player).
- "So the other players have no reason to ask for spot checks" = Bad (players and DM). Spotting is passive.
- "but he is going through some major personal issues in his life/his anger and grief over losing his girlfriend to cancer is making him bitter" = very unfortunate, but the end results are still Bad (player).
- "DM gives out different XP based on what you did in the game" = Bad (DM).

What a complete and utter mess. These gems show to me that this is almost entirely a player problem, with the DM only slightly contributing to the problem (but contributing to be sure). Considering the situation, I'm surprised the players have tolerated the game as much as they have.

Are these players so socially inept that they can't work it out among themselves, and require the DM to intervene and babysit them? You said they almost all adults (40+!) - they should be capable of at least the simplest conflict resolution techniques, I would think.

 

[DonTadow]

For a lot of people, the most fun is the roleplaying. If all I wanted was the dungeons and the dragons, I've got board games to play. A certain amount of inter-party argument can be fun, and prohibiting the LG cleric and CN thief who's stealing from her from argument isn't realistic and just isn't fun to me.

then you're playing the wrong game to begin with. D and D is defined as a cooperative game. I'm not saying everyones going down the yellow brick road skipping and holding hands, but the point of the game is to role play on adventures to find dungeons and dragons, not to roleplay out arguments and squabbles. It's a DM's job to make sure the game stays on track.

 

[Lanefan]

I hate playing in a game where a DM gives out different XP based on what you did in the game.

I think it leads to grandstanding, spot light hogging, lone wolf and bad feelings. If you want the players to act like a team don't but roadblocks in their way.

This means that characters that do nothing still get ExP. So, if I want my character to succeed, I just hang around, do nothing, gain ExP, and end up higher level and wealthier than anyone else because everyone else has died, been level-drained, or had other Bad Things happen. With ExP based on actions, this cannot occur.

I had a DM do this if you didn't get a chance to go before the enemy was defeated or if you got knocked out no XP for tue encounter.

Them's the breaks. If a character rushes in to the risk zone but never gets a chance to contribute, I'll usually give half ExP, or even full, depending. If you die, you get half. But if you stand back and watch, you get nothing. Period.

The only time I give out extra XP is for things like journals, finding a good picture, things like that and it is not a lot it is about 50 to 100. Its a little reward for the extra effort but not enough to penalize people who don't have the time or inclination to do extra.

Thus making ExP a player reward instead of a character reward. Characters earn ExP. Player's don't.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

Yeah, most people play dungeons and dragons to bicker and fight amongst themselves. I'm sorry, if I want this I"ll have dinner with my family more often. The most important part about the game is the adventure. Petty squabbling hinders both finding the dungeons and the dragons.

The adventure is key mostly to the DM, who designed it. But if the players want to fight each other instead, let 'em fight. Eventually, they'll tire of it and get back to the story...or divert to a new story, whatever.

Lanefan

 

[Elf Witch]

This means that characters that do nothing still get ExP. So, if I want my character to succeed, I just hang around, do nothing, gain ExP, and end up higher level and wealthier than anyone else because everyone else has died, been level-drained, or had other Bad Things happen. With ExP based on actions, this cannot occur.Them's the breaks. If a character rushes in to the risk zone but never gets a chance to contribute, I'll usually give half ExP, or even full, depending. If you die, you get half. But if you stand back and watch, you get nothing. Period.Thus making ExP a player reward instead of a character reward. Characters earn ExP. Player's don't.

Lanefan

I don't know anyone who chooses to stand around and do nothing in a combat. I think it is unfair to penalize a player because he rolled a low inititive and the enemy is wiped out before he gets to act. Or he fails a will save and gets a hold spell cast on him.

And it is really unfair if you penalize a player because he rolls badly and get knocked out by the DM rolling well ,so no xp for you becauase you didn't hit anyone.

I don't think games like that are fun at all. I have never has a player just stand back and watch and do nothing. I can't imagine why a player would not want to play by sitting on his hands watching other players have fun.

Yes it is a player reward because it is the player who is playing, the character does not really exisist. And I like to give the player who goes does a little extra a reward.

 

[Lanefan]

then you're playing the wrong game to begin with. D and D is defined as a cooperative game. I'm not saying everyones going down the yellow brick road skipping and holding hands, but the point of the game is to role play on adventures to find dungeons and dragons, not to roleplay out arguments and squabbles. It's a DM's job to make sure the game stays on track.

Whose track? The DM's, or the players'? I ask because if the track the players want to follow is a good old throw-down among themselves, it's not the DM's place to ban that.

The point of the game is to role-play, and go where that leads you. Sometimes, it leads to adventure and glory. Sometimes, it leads to drawing steel on a fellow adventurer. Sometimes, a party works like a well-oiled machine. Sometimes, a party argues amongst itself...to point of steel and spell, occasionally. So what?

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

I don't know anyone who choose to stand around and do nothing in a combat. I think it is unfair to penalize a player because he rolled a low inititive and the enemy is wiped out before he gets to act. Or he fails a will save and gets a hold spell cast on him.

And it is really unfair if you penalize a player because he rolls badly and get knocked out by the DM rolling well and so no xp for you becauase you didn't hit anyone.

Initiative roll inequities will largely cancel out in the long run. For the rest, if you got knocked out that tells me you were in what I call the risk zone, so you get ExP. If you get held, it somewhat depends. I don't give ExP if you never knew what hit you, but if you'd charged in, swung, missed, then got held you'd definitely get full ExP.

I don't think games like that or fun at all. I have never has a player just stand back and watch and do nothing. I can't imagine why a player would want not to play by sitting on his hands watching other players have fun.

I have, and I know that if people knew they'd get full ExP regardless there'd be certain characters who would not take any risks unless they absolutely had to (e.g. everyone else was dead). Fun for these players is watching other players' PC's take the risks and die, and being glad it wasn't their own. I'll discourage this by any means possible...variable ExP seems the most obvious, and easiest.

Yes it is a player reward because it is the player who is playing the character does not really exisist. And I like to give the player who goes does a little extra a reward.

Fair enough; if it works for you, fine, but were I a player in such a game I think I'd soon end up resenting it...and resisting it.

Lanefan

 

[DonTadow]

The adventure is key mostly to the DM, who designed it. But if the players want to fight each other instead, let 'em fight. Eventually, they'll tire of it and get back to the story...or divert to a new story, whatever.

Lanefan

Or
1. the players whom hate it realize that the dm is incompetant and goes to another game or starts their own

2. the players take it into real life

IN both of these cases I"m guaranteeing that you're wasting at least one players time whom is probably only staying in the group out of friendship or because he can't find a better group

 

[DonTadow]

Whose track? The DM's, or the players'? I ask because if the track the players want to follow is a good old throw-down among themselves, it's not the DM's place to ban that.

The point of the game is to role-play, and go where that leads you. Sometimes, it leads to adventure and glory. Sometimes, it leads to drawing steel on a fellow adventurer. Sometimes, a party works like a well-oiled machine. Sometimes, a party argues amongst itself...to point of steel and spell, occasionally. So what?

Lanefan

The DMs track. Its in the DMG, DMG2 and most official dm'n tutorials. The DM sets up the adventure, plot, events for the day and its his job to make sure that its on track. Even if you play in an open world without a storyline, the DM still is there to make sure that there's some adventure and fun to be had.

The DM does not put on a ref shirt and play wwe smackdown with his players. I doubt...seriously... that you'll find an entire group where everyone enjoys this over a good ole fashion dungeons and dragons adventure.

If this is what you're like for I"d suggest Best Friends over at rpgnow. It's a good system geared towards screwing the other players.

I know I'm taking this seriously because i take DM'n seriously, its a job getting in that chair and there are so many bad DMs with a lazy attitude and no real feel for where the game is going that drives players away.