CMD too low?

[Ymdar]

We are about to hit a level in our game when our monk will according to him "aggro enemies on him and then trip them all over".

This was the time I started to look up the CMD. And then I realized combat maneuvers are pretty powerful since only rings or protections or some specialized protection spells (mainly from the cleric list) increase the CMD. And even these increases are low compared to the vast magic items allowing the increase of AC.

Since you guys must have played the game longer than me, I think by now you surely have found some solutions, or experienced that the CMD is not so low.

 

[frankthedm]

At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his Combat Maneuver Bonus.

Don't Add Both.

Maneuver feats only give +2 now, not +4.

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier + miscellaneous modifier

EDIT: Not many “Agro” mechanics in Pathfinder that I know of. If the monk makes it inconvenient for the foes to get him, someone else is attacked. And if it is a BIG monster...

You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you.

And plenty of monsters are immune to tripping. Pathfinder actually calls this out rather than leave it up to guesswork.

Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

 

[Mojo_Rat]

the level of opponents cmd will vary ALOT depending on what you are fighting. large quadrupeds can have a high trip cmd. but really don't sweat it. if the monk is tripping a d grappling people he is doing his job. my lvl 9 monk has 24 to trip but 15 to grapple and 13 to do other stuff. a lvl 9 fightter might have 25 to 30 or more depending, but this is what monks don really well.

 

[Tovec]

TO frankthedm: I think the original poster was saying that items, abilities, spells, etc. to increase CMD seem outpaced by items, abilities, spells, etc. that increase AC.

I agree to a point. Monks have a good ability to adapt and do certain actions. I'm hoping to change this issue in my next game by instituting point buy and making sure to check how long each action takes.

Overall I don't know how to fix the problem, beyond possibly taking monk's Wis to CMD away.

 

[DumbPaladin]

Are people really experiencing a problem with MONKS shutting down a game? It's easily one of the weaker classes in Pathfinder (as it was in 3.5). I call Shenanigans.

 

[Borthos]

I don't know about your games, but in all the games I've ran/played the monk has been a very big nuisance for the DM. One was because he got lucky with rolls (and the sheer number of attacks helped too) and critted so often it wasn't even funny. They were all legit, so the DM couldn't really say "No, it doesn't count."

The other was just because the player was being crazy, jumping around, and while he didn't do much damage, he could lock down two or three guys at once tripping and relying on AoOs.

The monk isn't the most optimum class, but it's just fun and annoying

 

[Jeff Wilder]

We haven't made a lot of use of CMB/CMD in our nascent PFRPG game yet. What we have seen -- Acrobatics rolls to avoid AoOs -- have been instances where CMD is too high.

Technically, I think the "10" part of "10+CMD" is too high, but still.

My max-ranks rogue fails these against level-appropriate enemies about 50 to 60 percent.

 

[Ymdar]

Well, if you guys didn't experience a balance issue with the CMD being overall low compared to the AC while almost no magic item can increase it, then all is well.

 

[Alzrius]

In my experience, pretty much everything that adds a bonus to AC - so long as it isn't an armor, shield, or natural armor bonus - is going to increase CMD as well (emphasis mine):

Combat Maneuver Defense: Each character and creature has a Combat Maneuver Defense (or CMD) that represents its ability to resist combat maneuvers. A creature's CMD is determined using the following formula:

CMD = 10 + Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + Dexterity modifier + special size modifier

The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Defense is as follows: Fine –8, Diminutive –4, Tiny –2, Small –1, Medium +0, Large +1, Huge +2, Gargantuan +4, Colossal +8. Some feats and abilities grant a bonus to your CMD when resisting specific maneuvers. A creature can also add any circumstance, deflection, dodge, insight, luck, morale, profane, and sacred bonuses to AC to its CMD. Any penalties to a creature's AC also apply to its CMD. A flat-footed creature does not add its Dexterity bonus to its CMD.

Between that and the Defensive Combat Training feat, raising a character's CMD shouldn't be too hard.

 

[Thazar]

You also need to keep in mind that BAB plays into the CMD. So you have built in increases right there that is not present in AC. For most classes and in most cases hitting a CMD is pretty hard to do over all. Monks are very good at tripping, but they will still find many bad guys that they will either fail at even before the dice is rolled or have a small chance of success. Other times they will make the bad guy eat dirt.

As in all things sometimes the player character will shine... others he will have little to do if he puts all of his focus into one type of attack.

Also remember that things that are built to fight well will usually out fight the things that do not fight well. A wizard is EASY to trip at any level... a fighter is hard, and a giant is VERY hard.