CoC d20 in D&D

[Horacio]

It's sounding more and more like everyone's playing an Expert.

And would it be a problem?

 

[drnuncheon]

It's sounding more and more like everyone's playing an Expert.

Effectively, yeah - except there are two versions. One has mediocre BAB advancement and 1 good save, and the other has lousy BAB advancement and 2 good saves.

Most people in the modern world would be Experts anyway, so why not?

J

 

[mmadsen]

If everyone's playing Experts with no class abilities and just one Feat per three levels, I'm not sure they'll have enough Feats for many character concepts -- and the characters are unambiguously less powerful than standard D&D characters (e.g. Rogues).

Of course, if we introduce a variant Fighter class and allow multiclassing, we regain some flexibility, but if we try to reintroduce the Rogue, it overshadows the CoC Expert.

 

[drnuncheon]

If everyone's playing Experts with no class abilities and just one Feat per three levels, I'm not sure they'll have enough Feats for many character concepts -- and the characters are unambiguously less powerful than standard D&D characters (e.g. Rogues).

Of course, if we introduce a variant Fighter class and allow multiclassing, we regain some flexibility, but if we try to reintroduce the Rogue, it overshadows the CoC Expert.

What character concepts are you thinking of specifically? I can't think of any that need feats.

Sure, they're less powerful than standard D&D characters - they're in a different game. It's a lower-powered game that doesn't support the kind of high-fantasy heroics that D&D does. That's not a problem...that's a bonus.

J

 

[Lazarus Long]

CoC is more skills-based than feat-based (like D&D).

Different focus for a different type of game.

 

[mmadsen]

What character concepts are you thinking of specifically? I can't think of any that need feats.

I can think of a few pulp-era concepts that need Feats to match the concept. A Carnival Wrestler or Physical Culturist would need (from Oriental Adventures) Improved Grapple and Great Throw -- and those Feats require Improved Unarmed Strike, Dodge, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes (although I'd waive most of those). Such a character should also have (again, from Oriental Adventures) Choke Hold and Earth's Embrace to represent "concession holds" popular in the catch-as-catch-can wrestling of the period. That's an admittedly extreme example.

An Amateur Boxer or Mob Leg Breaker should have Improved Unarmed Strike and Toughness at the very least. Many other combat Feats would fit, especially Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

A Cavalry Officer back from (or about to head out to) The Great War should have lots of (useless) mounted-fighting Feats.

A Great White Hunter needs Track, some kind of Sneak Attack (or Sniper Attack) Feat, probably most of the ranged combat Feats, etc.

A Football Player needs Improved Bull Rush and Toughness.

 

[drnuncheon]

I can think of a few pulp-era concepts that need Feats to match the concept.

Well, when you get into 'pulp era' people also tend to start thinking in 'pulp hero' terms. Most of the stuff that a wrestler would do is possible with just the standard grappling rules.

"Should have" is a very nebulous thing. I've noticed that a lot of people will pile on everything that a character "should have" and then complain because they can't get it all - ignoring the fact that at 1st level they're not supposed to be the World's Greatest X.

An Amateur Boxer or Mob Leg Breaker should have Improved Unarmed Strike and Toughness at the very least. Many other combat Feats would fit, especially Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

A Cavalry Officer back from (or about to head out to) The Great War should have lots of (useless) mounted-fighting Feats.

A Great White Hunter needs Track, some kind of Sneak Attack (or Sniper Attack) Feat, probably most of the ranged combat Feats, etc.

A Football Player needs Improved Bull Rush and Toughness.

Remember: 1st level. Just starting out. The amateur boxer is probably not a Golden Gloves champion, so really Improved Unarmed Strike is OK. He can get the additional benefits as he goes up in level and becomes a better boxer. If you want to play Muhammed Ali, you need a higher level character.

The Great White Hunter probably has a native guide to do the tracking for him. And he doesn't need all the ranged combat feats to be a hunter - they're nice, but not necessary. If he's the greatest hunter to come out of Africa, he's probably not first level.

The football player...doesn't Improved Bull Rush just negate the AoO? Since there aren't AoOs in Cthulhu, there's no problem...

I think the problem is that too many people look at the feats and say "I need this" when they really mean, "I want this" - and then they make the mistake of thinking that they have to start with it all.

J

 

[mmadsen]

Remember: 1st level. Just starting out.

In d20 CoC though, even a 10th-level character only has three more Feats than a 1st-level character. He has 10 times the hit points, but only three more Feats.

 

[hong]

In d20 CoC though, even a 10th-level character only has three more Feats than a 1st-level character. He has 10 times the hit points, but only three more Feats.

If five feats total are enough for D&D warriors, clerics and sorcs, they should be enough for any short-life-expectancy CoC character.

 

[drnuncheon]

In d20 CoC though, even a 10th-level character only has three more Feats than a 1st-level character. He has 10 times the hit points, but only three more Feats.

All that does is shift the "best in the world" from the heroic fantasy levels of D&D to the closer to real-world levels in D20 CoC. They're different games, so comparing the two is and saying they aren't balanced with each other is kind of pointless - it's like saying D&D isn't balanced with Champions because starting superheros can do so much more than 1st level adventurers.

The point is that you can create plausible real-world characters in the d20 CoC without having to change the rules - and therefore they do what they're designed to do. The fact that you can't make a character that equals a high-level D&D fighter is pretty much irrelevant.

J