Combat actions before combat?
- Thread starter Ferghis
- Start date
Quickleaf
Legend
Good catch- it appears stances are the exception rather than the rule.
When a character uses a stance power, the character assumes a stance that lasts until he or she assumes another stance, falls unconscious, or dies. A stance also ends at the end of the encounter, unless the stance can be assumed at will. A character can assume no more than one stance per turn. (HotFK p.75)
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Yup, they added that bit about at-will for Essentials. Mearls also made some statement somewhere that I remember reading to the effect that Essentials martial characters can ALWAYS be in one of their stances. A regular daily stance could also be entered before a combat, always could be.
The thing is outside of combat action economy doesn't exist. Therefor you can't do something like ready an action because actions don't exist before initiative is rolled. Powers simply don't need the accounting of actions in other situations. You can reasonably extrapolate a few things though, like a character that is unconscious can't use powers even outside of combat, but that's the equivalent of the 'gravity rule', the world works in a normal comprehensible way unless something changes that.
It isn't so much that I think there's something fundamentally wrong with being able to be prepared for an attack say. I just think it grants 'an advantage' and that advantage is just as easily created using the surprise round. The enemy breaks down the door, initiating combat, initiative is rolled, a surprise round is now issued against the attackers boiling into the room, and the defenders get first shot. Sure, they may get second shot too, but so it goes. A frontal assault through a door into a room filled with experienced warriors who are ready and waiting for you is going to be ugly...
The thing is outside of combat action economy doesn't exist. Therefor you can't do something like ready an action because actions don't exist before initiative is rolled. Powers simply don't need the accounting of actions in other situations. You can reasonably extrapolate a few things though, like a character that is unconscious can't use powers even outside of combat, but that's the equivalent of the 'gravity rule', the world works in a normal comprehensible way unless something changes that.
It isn't so much that I think there's something fundamentally wrong with being able to be prepared for an attack say. I just think it grants 'an advantage' and that advantage is just as easily created using the surprise round. The enemy breaks down the door, initiating combat, initiative is rolled, a surprise round is now issued against the attackers boiling into the room, and the defenders get first shot. Sure, they may get second shot too, but so it goes. A frontal assault through a door into a room filled with experienced warriors who are ready and waiting for you is going to be ugly...
Ferghis
First Post
I would be happy to abstract away the advantage and translate it into surprise (in game terms). The problem with that solution is that the abstracted advantage you're arranging for only applies to one side. In the scenario posted early in this thread both the party opening the door and the one waiting on the other side are both seeking an advantage. One is looking for an early shot with a readied action, the other is looking for a defense bonus thanks to a total defense. How do you abstract away both those advantages?
Nytmare
David Jose
You just roll initiative.
If the attackers win, they get to shoot first, if the defenders win, they get to take total defense.
Ferghis
First Post
Denying what is an otherwise clearly available advantage on the basis of a die roll is an unsatisfactory resolution. As a DM, we're instructed to say yes whenever possible. If these kinds of actions are used reasonably, I'm starting to be inclined to permit some combat actions out of combat. Rolling one or two attacks or gaining a +2 to defenses won't destroy the game. If it even remotely begins to get out of hand, I'd dock surges. Or something.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I think he's suggesting the attackers might take total defense and THEN crash through the door, on the assumption that they'll be taking fire before they can respond.
My answer is that no combat is taking place until someone starts making attacks. The attackers blow open the hatch. The defenders don't DO anything at that point, they're just coming to full readiness. So I think the answer is round 1 the defenders get a 'surprise round', but since they have no targets at that point all they do is ready their standard action attacks and wait. Then the attackers move in and take fire.
One thing that D&D doesn't have, and which is hard to really model in the game, is covering/suppressive fire. Realistically a firefight like that would probably consist of the defenders laying in heavy suppressive fire with the goal of pinning the attackers down at the hatch and preventing them from even coming through. The attackers conversely would probably lay in heavy covering fire, lay out smoke or something to degrade the defender's fire, and then try to force their way into the corridor and assault. Truthfully in a realistic scenario such a tactic would also be almost certainly doomed to failure.
Of course in the world of D&D you're dealing with low rate of fire weapons with limited deadliness, so suppression and cover are of more limited utility and an attacker can afford to accept some exposure to defensive fire if they can expect to survive long enough to close.
I just don't think a 'total defense' option is really that much of an option. Technically you can do it by the rules, but the fact that it won't be able to function in a surprise round doesn't bother me. The attackers are exposed and going to be punished as they close, and that's probably the way it should be. Chances are slim that the attackers won't be able to get off some attacks before one or two of them go down anyway. So you run in, close to melee if you can, and at worst chuck off an area/ranged attack after taking the prepared fire of the defender. Numbers are the attackers main advantage. Maybe a couple of them do fall, but presumably you're attacking because you have superior force.
My answer is that no combat is taking place until someone starts making attacks. The attackers blow open the hatch. The defenders don't DO anything at that point, they're just coming to full readiness. So I think the answer is round 1 the defenders get a 'surprise round', but since they have no targets at that point all they do is ready their standard action attacks and wait. Then the attackers move in and take fire.
One thing that D&D doesn't have, and which is hard to really model in the game, is covering/suppressive fire. Realistically a firefight like that would probably consist of the defenders laying in heavy suppressive fire with the goal of pinning the attackers down at the hatch and preventing them from even coming through. The attackers conversely would probably lay in heavy covering fire, lay out smoke or something to degrade the defender's fire, and then try to force their way into the corridor and assault. Truthfully in a realistic scenario such a tactic would also be almost certainly doomed to failure.
Of course in the world of D&D you're dealing with low rate of fire weapons with limited deadliness, so suppression and cover are of more limited utility and an attacker can afford to accept some exposure to defensive fire if they can expect to survive long enough to close.
I just don't think a 'total defense' option is really that much of an option. Technically you can do it by the rules, but the fact that it won't be able to function in a surprise round doesn't bother me. The attackers are exposed and going to be punished as they close, and that's probably the way it should be. Chances are slim that the attackers won't be able to get off some attacks before one or two of them go down anyway. So you run in, close to melee if you can, and at worst chuck off an area/ranged attack after taking the prepared fire of the defender. Numbers are the attackers main advantage. Maybe a couple of them do fall, but presumably you're attacking because you have superior force.
Well in a realistic modern day scenario the stormtroopers (attackers) would fire grenades in, which would suppress/kill the senatorial guards (defenders) much more effectively than would smoke & blaster bolts.
AoE weapons give the attacker a big advantage in confined quarters.
Nytmare
David Jose
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