Combat Expertise and Spellcasting

[Hypersmurf]

According to the SRD this not correct. There is no such thing as a "Charge Action" or an "Attack Action". The only "Actions" that take place in a round are Standard, Move, Full-Round and Free Actions. Anything like an Attack or Charge falls into one of these categories.

Standard, Move, Full-Round, and Free are types of actions.

The Attack action is a standard action. The Full Attack action is a Full Round action. The Cast a Spell action is generally a Standard action, though it can be a Full Round action.

Some examples:

RIDE-BY ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat.
Benefit: When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack...

SPIRITED CHARGE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal...

SHOT ON THE RUN [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a ranged weapon, you can move...

SPRING ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move...

WHIRLWIND ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: When you use the full attack action, you can give up...

RAPID SHOT [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can get one extra attack per round with a ranged weapon. The attack is at your highest base attack bonus, but each attack you make in that round (the extra one and the normal ones) takes a –2 penalty. You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

COMBAT EXPERTISE [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Int 13.
Benefit: When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take...

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So, is it your contention that every one of these feats is using a non-existent term?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What isn't clear to me is how attack action is defined. It says under standard actions that there are three attack actions, namely, melee, ranged, and unarmed.

Yup. And if you look at where those are explained, they are in the Standard actions section, under the heading "Attack".

Anything under that heading is the standard action, "the Attack action". It is a standard action that allows you to make a single melee attack, or a single ranged attack, or a single unarmed attack. The single melee attack can be substituted for a Trip, Disarm, or Grapple attempt.

Under Full Round actions, there is a heading, "Full Attack". This describes "the Full Attack action". There is another heading, "Charge", which describes "the Charge action".

-Hyp.

 

[Drommon]

Yup. And if you look at where those are explained, they are in the Standard actions section, under the heading "Attack".

Anything under that heading is the standard action, "the Attack action". It is a standard action that allows you to make a single melee attack, or a single ranged attack, or a single unarmed attack. The single melee attack can be substituted for a Trip, Disarm, or Grapple attempt.

Under Full Round actions, there is a heading, "Full Attack". This describes "the Full Attack action". There is another heading, "Charge", which describes "the Charge action".

-Hyp.

So by that, one cannot use Combat Expertise even while using Aid Another.

Drommon

 

[Hypersmurf]

So by that, one cannot use Combat Expertise even while using Aid Another.

Absolutely correct.

Aid Another is neither the Attack action nor the Full Attack action, which determine when Combat Expertise may be used.

-Hyp.

 

[Drommon]

Absolutely correct.

Aid Another is neither the Attack action nor the Full Attack action, which determine when Combat Expertise may be used.

-Hyp.

But unlike power attack I can do Combat Expertise anytime during a Full Attack Action. So if I had a BAB of 15/10/5, I could attack with +15 then +10 but the third attack I would put +5 into Combat Expertise...

Drommon

 

[Hypersmurf]

But unlike power attack I can do Combat Expertise anytime during a Full Attack Action. So if I had a BAB of 15/10/5, I could attack with +15 then +10 but the third attack I would put +5 into Combat Expertise...

Arguable.

You apply Combat Expertise "when you use the full attack action".

I'd certainly read that as "I'm going to use the full attack action!" "Are you going to use Combat Expertise when you do that?"

-Hyp.

 

[Drommon]

Arguable.

You apply Combat Expertise "when you use the full attack action".

I'd certainly read that as "I'm going to use the full attack action!" "Are you going to use Combat Expertise when you do that?"

-Hyp.

If that were the case wouldn't the wording be more like Power Attack? Such as "Before making any attacks during your full attack action..." and further "You choose to subtract a number from all attack rolls.."

Emphasis on "ALL." Combat Expertise makes no such distinction.

Drommon

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's why I say "It's arguable", rather than "It's clear"

-Hyp.

 

[Drommon]

That's why I say "It's arguable", rather than "It's clear"

-Hyp.

Hyp -

Thanks for clearing up the confusion regarding action types. Up until now I have been using combat expertise with charge. That way I would get the double move and attack without any changes to my AC or modifiers to attack. Also I have seen other players use touch spells with combat expertise (not holding the charge.) I had always thought that a melee attack, regardless of where it came from, was an attack action.

Thanks!

Drommon

 

[Otterscrubber]

So, is it your contention that every one of these feats is using a non-existent term?

-Hyp.

From the SRD:

ACTION TYPES
An action’s type essentially tells you how long the action takes to perform (within the framework of the 6-second combat round) and how movement is treated. There are four types of actions: standard actions, move actions, full-round actions, and free actions.
In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action.


It is not my contention, merely what is in the SRD.