Combat Expertise and Spellcasting

[Hypersmurf]

It is not my contention, merely what is in the SRD.

That's right - those are the action types.

It's like you're saying "There's no such thing as a 'longsword' or 'greataxe'. The SRD says there are three types of weapons - Simple, Martial, and Exotic. One can argue that this makes the wording of the magic items section somewhat poor..."

There are four types of action. One of those is "Standard Action". An example of a Standard Action is "the Attack action". Another example is "the Aid Another action".

-Hyp.

 

[Otterscrubber]

That's right - those are the action types.

It's like you're saying "There's no such thing as a 'longsword' or 'greataxe'. The SRD says there are three types of weapons - Simple, Martial, and Exotic. One can argue that this makes the wording of the magic items section somewhat poor..."

There are four types of action. One of those is "Standard Action". An example of a Standard Action is "the Attack action". Another example is "the Aid Another action".

-Hyp.

Ah, metaphors, gotta love'em. It's not like I was saying anything regarding weapons. But if we want to drill it down then why not. What's to say that the melee attack generated by a touch spell isnt a "type" of attack action?

Fair enough, so what action is the mage taking when he makes his melee touch attack (which seems like some kind of action to me, call it what you want), rolls his d20, adds his stength, and compares it to his opponents AC to see if he hits? Sounds like an attack to me. If it looks like an attack, walks like an attack and quacks like an attack, maybe it is an attack?

While we're on the subject, where in the rules does it state that you can cast a spell and make the touch attack in the same round. I was kinda basing my opinion on the fact that was possible but I tried finding it and could not.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell.

As for Actions, I believe the PHB more clearly defines then, but I don't have access to mine right now.

 

[Drommon]

While we're on the subject, where in the rules does it state that you can cast a spell and make the touch attack in the same round. I was kinda basing my opinion on the fact that was possible but I tried finding it and could not.

From the SRD:

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.


Drommon

 

[Hypersmurf]

Fair enough, so what action is the mage taking when he makes his melee touch attack (which seems like some kind of action to me, call it what you want), rolls his d20, adds his stength, and compares it to his opponents AC to see if he hits? Sounds like an attack to me. If it looks like an attack, walks like an attack and quacks like an attack, maybe it is an attack?

Of course it's an attack. But it's an attack made as part of the Cast a Spell action, not an attack made as part of the Attack action.

There are several ways you can make a melee attack.

1. Cast a Spell action, when casting a touch spell, allows you to make a single melee touch attack.
2. An AoO allows a single melee attack.
3. The Charge action allows a single melee attack.
4. The Expert Tactician feat allows a single melee attack.
5. The Attack action allows a single melee attack.
6. The Full Attack action allows one or more melee attacks.

Of that (probably non-exhaustive) list, only 5 and 6 allow you to use Combat Expertise. The rest allow melee attacks, but they are neither the Attack action, nor the Full Attack action.

The Attack action is a specific Standard action that lets you make a single attack.

While we're on the subject, where in the rules does it state that you can cast a spell and make the touch attack in the same round. I was kinda basing my opinion on the fact that was possible but I tried finding it and could not.

In the Combat section, under the Cast a Spell action.

Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Ah, metaphors, gotta love'em.

And that was a simile

-Hyp.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Well that does make sense. Especially the part about it being a simile......