Combat Expertise, Full Defense Actions, and Fighting Defensively

[Spatula]

That's just it. You can't use Power Attack or Combat Expertise with Whirlwind Attack. It says as stated above "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

Bonus attacks, not bonuses, period. For example, you can't get a bonus attack from Cleave when using Whirlwind, or extra attacks from Flurry of Blows, or the bonus attack granted by haste, etc. By your interpretation, you can't use Weapon Focus (being a feat that provides a bonus) with Whirlwind Attack, which is rather silly IMO.

 

[Particle_Man]

Under Fighting Defensively, it says "...this bonus stacks with the AC bonus granted by the Combat Expertise feat." p. 140 (phb). And the defending AC bonus on magic weapons "Stacks with all others" (DMG) p.224. Oh, all this is 3.5

As it stands, then, Combat Expertise, Fighting Defensively and a Defending weapon can all add AC bonuses that stack with each other.

The Total Defense action would not get a Combat Expertise bonus as written (see. p. 142), because Combat Expertise requires you to use the attack action or full attack action in meelee (p.92), and Total Defense is neither. (I think this is to stop someone getting a "free" +5 bonus to AC when they activate a magic item, or do something other than attack with their standard action).

In your above example of someone only taking a move action and wanting the benefits of Combat Expertise, they would still have to make at least a "token" attack (and hopefully one that does not draw an Aoo, like an unarmed attack if you don't have the improved unarmed combat feat). However, no one said you had to use that attack to damage anyone. If you have the improved disarm feat, you could use it to try for a disarm, which is pretty useful defensively. Combat Expertise is based on the "use offense as defense" idea. But you can use the total defense standard action and a move action, so that seems to be the "defense without offense" option.

And if you like total defense and fighting defensively, you might want to get those 5 ranks of tumble to "upgrade" them, so long as your speed has not been reduced by "armour, excess equipment, or loot." (if your speed is reduced you can't get the use of tumble) (p.84). If you like tumbling in armour, get a dwarf and go to town, since dwarves do not lose movement to petty things like armour or encumbrance, and so can tumble, and so can benefit from having 5 ranks in tumble.

Finally, with respect to ranged attacks. Combat expertise can only be used by someone in meelee, but I suppose that such a person would gain an AC bonus vs. both his meelee opponent and any ranged attack opponents shooting into the meelee. But apparently fighting defensively and total defense work both when you are using ranged weapons and when others are using ranged weapons on you.

A defending weapon would work vs. ranged attacks, but itself only applies as a meelee weapon magical bonus. I suppose that one might be able to use it when throwing a defending weapon, but that could allow one to throw 4 daggers/round and get 4 stackable AC bonuses if all the daggers have the defending ability. On the other hand, one can fight with two weapons that both have the defending ability, and these AC bonuses apparently stack. But, once you throw the daggers, they are gone, so one might interpret that to mean that the AC bonus is gone as well (you don't have the weapons in hand to defend you when it is the opponent's turn to attack). So by my interpretation, one cannot use the AC bonus from defending weapons unless one is holding those weapons at the time one is attacked, and has declared how much if any bonus transfers to AC on one's turn, before one was attacked.

 

[Darklone]

... Then, since the feint attempt was only a Move action, I can take a standard action--an attack. I chose to add +4 of my BAB to Power Attack the Orc with my foot (another Improved Unarmed Attack) and also use Combat Expertise to put +1 of my BAB into my AC, as a guard against any counter-attack from the Orc. ...

Just a minor quirk... I think you have to apply the penalty to hit by Power Attack and Combat Expertise to the opposed Disarm check and the melee touch attack to trip as well...

 

[The Souljourner]

That's just it. You can't use Power Attack or Combat Expertise with Whirlwind Attack. It says as stated above "When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

Since both power attack and combat expertise are bonuses granted by feats, they can't be used with Whirlwind attack.

It's bonus attacks, not bonuses in general. If it were any bonuses at all, you wouldn't be able to use the bonus from greater magic weapon, or divine power, or weapon focus... dwarves would lose their racial bonus against poison..... I think you see my point.

You can definitely use power attack and expertise and fighting defensively and whatever else you want. They all simply say they may be used during an attack... are you suddenly not doing an attack when you're using expertise? No. it's still an attack, so you can still also apply power attack.

-The Souljourner

 

[Stavros]

If I wanted, I could use the bonus to the Bluff skill (from the Persuasive feat) to successfully perform an Improved Feint on an Orc, which triggers my Expert Tactician attack, which I choose to be an Improved Trip (performed with my leg, since I have Improved Unarmed Strike). This succeeds, giving me an immediate attack on the Orc while he's on the ground (at +4 to-hit). I chose for this attack to be a disarm--no AoO from the Orc since I have the Improved Disarm feat. Then, since the feint attempt was only a Move action, I can take a standard action--an attack. I chose to add +4 of my BAB to Power Attack the Orc with my foot (another Improved Unarmed Attack) and also use Combat Expertise to put +1 of my BAB into my AC, as a guard against any counter-attack from the Orc. On his turn he picks up his weapon and stands up, provoking two AoOs from me. I have Combat Reflexes, so I take both AoOs. My first is another Power Attack with my foot. The second AoO (from standing up) is a Stunning Fist attack that succeeds, triggering Expert Tactician again (and making the Orc drop his weapon again due to Stun). My Expert Tactician attack is an Improved Trip, dropping the Orc to the ground again and triggering the Improved Trip followup attack. For this attack I jump on top of the Orc with an Improved Grapple (no AoO), and use Improved Unarmed Strike to deal damage.

Yes, of course you can use multiple feats on one action.

-z

I'm duly and truly impressed. I'll have to remember Expert Tactician and bluff as great addtions to my fighter's arsenal.

 

[bensei]

but why wouldn't a PC with expertise be better off on full defense instead of one fighting defensively?

He is, if he has at least 5 ranks in tumble.

 

[Malin Genie]

No - even then fighting defensively +3 AC, Expertise +5 AC, which stack --> +8 AC (compared to +6 for full defence)

Fighting defensively/expertise can be a nice combination with Trip attacks - because they're touch attacks, you have a good chance of hitting even with penalties, and the penalties don't affect your strength chack to actually trip (although they do affect your follow-up attack if you have Improved Trip)