Combat Expertise Weirdness

[Norfleet]

Combat Expertise allows a character to take up to a -5 on attack rolls and tack it on to his AC as a dodge bonus when taking a melee attack or full attack. This bonus appears to apply to all attacks directed against a character, both by the opponent he may be attacking, anyone else attacking him, and people shooting at him.

Why then, can a character ONLY perform this defensive manuever when ATTACKING somebody, and not merely when standing there attempting to defend himself from attackers? Could a character utilize this defensive move, by taking an attack action to attack an invisible opponent in front of him, since a character does not actually have to be aware of the existence of an opponent, as one is permitted to attack invisible opponents? He would, of course, suffer a 50% miss chance to attacking this nonexistent imaginary opponent, but characters are also permitted to attack illusionary, equally nonexistent opponents.

Doesn't this therefore suggest that Combat Expertise can be used anytime a character is willing to expend a standard action that either makes a melee attack, or does absolutely nothing(attack nonexistent opponent)?

 

[gfunk]

Doesn't this therefore suggest that Combat Expertise can be used anytime a character is willing to expend a standard action that either makes a melee attack, or does absolutely nothing(attack nonexistent opponent)?

Yes, as long as you take an attack action (doesn't matter if you actually swing or not), then you get the Expertise bonus. Note that you can also stack it with Fighting Defensively. For a total of -9 to hit and +7 to AC.

 

[Deset Gled]

To be defensive without making an attack is taking the Total Defense action, which is also a standard action. It gives a +4 bonus to AC, which may be higher if you have ranks in Tumble. It also has the stipulation that you give up all attacks of opportunity for the round.

In most cases, Combat Expertise is a better choice. And yes, it can only be used when taking an attack action. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

As for making an attack at "nothing", I know of nothing in the rules stating this is possible or impossible, and it would probably be up to the DM. If you do the "attack nothing" option, it will hurt your counter-roll for being disarmed, whereas Total Defense will not. It would also set off something by any other character that had readied an action to do something as soon as you attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Doesn't this therefore suggest that Combat Expertise can be used anytime a character is willing to expend a standard action that either makes a melee attack, or does absolutely nothing(attack nonexistent opponent)?

I want to say yes...

... but it doesn't say "the Attack Action with a melee weapon"; it says "the Attack Action in melee".

"In melee" is defined: "Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)"

So if there is, in fact, no opponent - whether or not you think there is - you are not actually "in melee".

Like I say, I want to say yes, but it depends how literal a rules interpretation you're after.

-Hyp.

 

[Norfleet]

The best defense often *IS* a good offense, because dead opponents find it difficult to attack you.

The rules do sort of suggest that it IS possible to attack nothing: Phantasmal opponents, which don't exist, can be attacked. Invisible opponents that you don't know are there can also be attacked, albeit at a 50% miss chance.

And, of course, if an opponent doesn't actually exist, you can take as large a penalty as you want, and it won't matter: Whether you hit or miss the nonexistent opponent is irrelevant.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"In melee" is defined: "Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. (An unconscious or otherwise immobilized character is not considered engaged unless he is actually being attacked.)"

Interestingly, this means you can use Combat Expertise with a longbow... as long as an enemy threatens you, since that means you are "in melee".

-Hyp.

 

[Deset Gled]

The best defense often *IS* a good offense, because dead opponents find it difficult to attack you.

Well, I meant something more along the lines of "It can be harder to hit a person while avoiding the sword that he's thrashing about than it is to hit a character who is holding his sword near him to deflect blows from the swords of others," but I guess that's close enough.

 

[Norfleet]

Well, I meant something more along the lines of "It can be harder to hit a person while avoiding the sword that he's thrashing about than it

Yes, but the thing is, the expertise bonus applies even when you're not in danger of being hit by that person, such as if you're attempting to poke him with a spear-pike, or shoot him in the head.

 

[Stalker0]

I've always played it as you get the bonus by just utilizing your attack action, not actually swinging. If you really want to get snippy with the rules then just swing at air, I wonder what the AC is for that?

 

[Norfleet]

I've always played it as you get the bonus by just utilizing your attack action, not actually swinging. If you really want to get snippy with the rules then just swing at air, I wonder what the AC is for that?

Well, presumably, the AC for "nothing" at most 0, and quite possibly negative-infinity. If you miss nothing, then logically, you hit something. That, of course, happens to be the secret for flight: Throw yourself at the ground and miss.