Combat length
- Thread starter MerricB
- Start date
Only one combat last session, but boy it was a big one.
Adventure Finale Combat: 13 rounds, 140 minutes (Encounter Level 21)
PCs:
Level 17 Striker (Warlock)
Level 17 Controller (Wizard)
Level 16 Striker (Rogue)
Level 16 Leader (Cleric)
Level 16 Defender (Fighter)
Opponents:
Level 18 Artillery
Level 17 Elite Controller
Level 15 Controller
4 Level 18 Skirmishers
2 Level 17 Soldiers
12 Level 14 Minions
Both the defender and leader were knocked unconscious at various points during the fight; the rogue was made rather ineffective because he was trapped in a corridor for much of the fight. Everyone took a *lot* of damage.
We had a lot of fun, though. If you're going to have one big combat to end a major adventure, this length isn't so bad. We ran this combat with minis.
A little more information - order of monster death:
Round 3: first Lvl 17 Soldier
Round 5: first Lvl 18 Skirmisher
Round 6: second Lvl 18 Skirmisher
Round 7: last minion killed.
Round 8: third Lvl 18 Skirmisher
Round 9: last Lvl 18 Skirmisher, Lvl 17 Elite Controller
Round 10: Level 15 Controller
Round 12: Lvl 18 Artillery
Round 13: last lvl 17 Soldier
Cheers!
Adventure Finale Combat: 13 rounds, 140 minutes (Encounter Level 21)
PCs:
Level 17 Striker (Warlock)
Level 17 Controller (Wizard)
Level 16 Striker (Rogue)
Level 16 Leader (Cleric)
Level 16 Defender (Fighter)
Opponents:
Level 18 Artillery
Level 17 Elite Controller
Level 15 Controller
4 Level 18 Skirmishers
2 Level 17 Soldiers
12 Level 14 Minions
Both the defender and leader were knocked unconscious at various points during the fight; the rogue was made rather ineffective because he was trapped in a corridor for much of the fight. Everyone took a *lot* of damage.
We had a lot of fun, though. If you're going to have one big combat to end a major adventure, this length isn't so bad. We ran this combat with minis.
A little more information - order of monster death:
Round 3: first Lvl 17 Soldier
Round 5: first Lvl 18 Skirmisher
Round 6: second Lvl 18 Skirmisher
Round 7: last minion killed.
Round 8: third Lvl 18 Skirmisher
Round 9: last Lvl 18 Skirmisher, Lvl 17 Elite Controller
Round 10: Level 15 Controller
Round 12: Lvl 18 Artillery
Round 13: last lvl 17 Soldier
Cheers!
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samursus
Explorer
Bringing this info over from another thread:
On Sunday night I kept track of the 2nd of 2 combats
5 players Chaladin, Cunning Rogue, InferLock, Laser Cleric, Assault SwordMage and an NPC Cleric who will only participate as a last resort.
All 3rd Level... most Dailies have been used in the 1st fight (almost TPK, only the NPC and a Warlock were conscious at one point, thankfully the NPC was Torrent (from WotBS) and RAW hadn't used any healing Powers yet)
Only the Rogue is optimized (by me for a new player) but 4/5 players are new to 4e (3 are new to RPGs!) and are having problems thinking tactically
#2: 9 rounds- ~2hours, 295 xp each, 12 non-minion combatants, Minis were used
LOL it was kind of sad. I have been reminding them to focus fire on occasion, but they wounded almost every enemy before they bloodied one.
This combat felt really grindy... but a big part of it is the players unfamiliarity with the tactical combat rules (and for 3 of them RPG's in general), and one player who cannot seem to remember how her powers work from turn to turn. She also has problems finding her dice. Some of her turns last 10 minutes.
Next session I am going to try and use the 1/2 hps + level dam trick. And going to work with my cousin to teach her the basics of playing her Cunning Sneak X-bow Rogue tactically. Thank jeebus she's an amazing Rp'er.
The other 2 players are guys who have some 4e experience and many more years of 3.5 or 2nd edition experience.
As a sidenote: its interesting to see how much difficulty these new female players have with knowledge I have taken for granted, being a player of D&D for 25 years or so. Its so alien to me to have trouble figuring out which die is d10 or d8... these are the first NEW players I have played with since...forever!
2nd sidenote: Just realizing there is a bit of a system mastery component to 4e in the tactical combat...but not like there was in previous editions. It feels more like chess in 4e, than how I felt previous system mastery felt like accounting or contractual law. Interesting... as this has not been apparent to me until now.
On Sunday night I kept track of the 2nd of 2 combats
5 players Chaladin, Cunning Rogue, InferLock, Laser Cleric, Assault SwordMage and an NPC Cleric who will only participate as a last resort.
All 3rd Level... most Dailies have been used in the 1st fight (almost TPK, only the NPC and a Warlock were conscious at one point, thankfully the NPC was Torrent (from WotBS) and RAW hadn't used any healing Powers yet)
Only the Rogue is optimized (by me for a new player) but 4/5 players are new to 4e (3 are new to RPGs!) and are having problems thinking tactically
#2: 9 rounds- ~2hours, 295 xp each, 12 non-minion combatants, Minis were used
LOL it was kind of sad. I have been reminding them to focus fire on occasion, but they wounded almost every enemy before they bloodied one.
This combat felt really grindy... but a big part of it is the players unfamiliarity with the tactical combat rules (and for 3 of them RPG's in general), and one player who cannot seem to remember how her powers work from turn to turn. She also has problems finding her dice. Some of her turns last 10 minutes.
Next session I am going to try and use the 1/2 hps + level dam trick. And going to work with my cousin to teach her the basics of playing her Cunning Sneak X-bow Rogue tactically. Thank jeebus she's an amazing Rp'er.
The other 2 players are guys who have some 4e experience and many more years of 3.5 or 2nd edition experience.
As a sidenote: its interesting to see how much difficulty these new female players have with knowledge I have taken for granted, being a player of D&D for 25 years or so. Its so alien to me to have trouble figuring out which die is d10 or d8... these are the first NEW players I have played with since...forever!
2nd sidenote: Just realizing there is a bit of a system mastery component to 4e in the tactical combat...but not like there was in previous editions. It feels more like chess in 4e, than how I felt previous system mastery felt like accounting or contractual law. Interesting... as this has not been apparent to me until now.
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blargney the second
blargney the minute's son
We use minis in our games, which makes me happy. I like my little plastic homeys.
As for their impact on gameplay speed, I think they slowed us down initially as we got used to our character's abilities and maneuverability. Now that we're more familiar with our PCs and how they interact with each other, I don't believe minis cause any significant slowdown.
-blarg
As for their impact on gameplay speed, I think they slowed us down initially as we got used to our character's abilities and maneuverability. Now that we're more familiar with our PCs and how they interact with each other, I don't believe minis cause any significant slowdown.
-blarg
Stacie GmrGrl
Adventurer
Five minute rounds. That's a good clip.
In our last 3.5 edition game over OpenRPG and then Maptools, we averaged about 5-10 minute rounds, although the campaign ended at about 10th level. We always used minis and maps, because it's a virtual tabletop and minis and maps can be 100% prepared beforehand.
With macros for actions, it meant that it was simply a case of point and click most of the time. Unfortunately, there are STILL players who cannot grasp the concept of macros and we wind up spending about 50% of combat time on 1 or maybe 2 players. Sigh.
My first 4e combat took 3 hours. Again, because of player issues (not bothering to prep any macros and barely reading the rules for their character) and some connectivity issues as well.
Did I mention that wasting time in combat is one of my HUGEST pet peeves.
Wasted combat time is my hugest pet peeve as well, and there's no excuse for having these combats take an hour long... any time a combat takes longer than 30 minutes its because players don't know everything it is they can do and/or they take the time to calculate over and over and over again different routes just to avoid an opportunity attack or they just talk out of game talk continuously that drags combat out because they aren't paying attention.
Stacie GmrGrl
Adventurer
Sorry if my last post seemed to be rather pointed about some things...I'm tired and I clicked submit before rereading it... and my cat is at my feet and won't stop attacking them. 
Sorry if my last post seemed to be rather pointed about some things...I'm tired and I clicked submit before rereading it... and my cat is at my feet and won't stop attacking them.
Ah, so your cat is like my cat then...
We use a system where you get skipped* after 10-20 seconds if you can't say what you are doing or ask a relevant question. If you get skipped you can say your action after any other action has finished. This helps a LOT to keep combat quick. To help the players I usually says who's next and who's going after that again.
As a DM I try to use as little time as possible and both me and the players do small tactical errors or sometimes, huge strategic blunders - but it goes both ways and it makes the game better.
Some characters, like an Invoker who routinely targets all the mobs, take a bit of time to sort out, especially when he uses his action point. This can take 2-3 minutes. The quickest character is probably the crossbow-wielding ranger that usually says: "I target x", roll 2xd20 and rolls damage and says: 17 damage. Often done in under 30 seconds.
*You have had about 5 minutes figuring out what you want to do on the other players/DM's turn, and I might let you have some more time if the battlefield suddenly changed dramatically right before your turn. This also helps people to stay focused during battle.
As a DM I try to use as little time as possible and both me and the players do small tactical errors or sometimes, huge strategic blunders - but it goes both ways and it makes the game better.
Some characters, like an Invoker who routinely targets all the mobs, take a bit of time to sort out, especially when he uses his action point. This can take 2-3 minutes. The quickest character is probably the crossbow-wielding ranger that usually says: "I target x", roll 2xd20 and rolls damage and says: 17 damage. Often done in under 30 seconds.
*You have had about 5 minutes figuring out what you want to do on the other players/DM's turn, and I might let you have some more time if the battlefield suddenly changed dramatically right before your turn. This also helps people to stay focused during battle.
I think it's a bit unfair to blame the problem of lenghty combat solely on the players. Many times the game mechanics, bad encounter design, or bad luck with dice rolls are much more to blame than the players. For instance, in 4E, you can expect to fight 5 or more monsters, which you will miss almost half the time, and do about 1/6 to 1/5 (sometimes less) of their hit points in damage per successful attack. Even if the players do everything perfectly, it is not realistic to expect a 4E encounter to be over in 30 minutes, but I would be very happy if the game was redesigned so that this would be a reasonable expectation.
Indeed. Even with the efforts the designers made to simplify the system and even with the Character Builder to hold your hand, 4E is not exactly newbie-friendly, and keeping track of all the numbers is not for the mathematically disinclined.
Heck, I'm a gaming veteran of 22 years, been playing 4E since release, and even so I make a point of designing characters that are easy to use at the gaming table. All of my attack stats must be the same value, and all my weapons must have the same proficiency bonus, so I don't have to think about what my attack bonus is. (I hardly ever play classes that mix weapon and implement powers.)
I don't take feats with elaborate conditions dictating when they apply, I don't take powers that require a slew of rolls or complicated mechanics, and I try to avoid anything that imposes fiddly little modifiers. Next to each power on the sheet, I write down the defense it targets and the damage it deals, so I don't have to sort through my power cards to get that info.
But of course newbies, who are the ones most in need of these brain-saving tricks, are the ones least likely to figure them out.
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