Combat with a Choker

[Olaf the Stout]

Last night I ran a combat with a Choker but I think I ran it incorrectly. For reference here is a link to the Choker's SRD Entry.

I think I got a little confused with the Constrict ability. Which says:

Constrict (Ex)
A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components.

The Choker's attack entry is: Tentacle +6 (1d3+3)

So when the Choker made an attack I rolled a Touch attack for it to try and start a Grapple. If it hit with the Touch attack and succeeded on the Grapple check it did 1d3+3 points of damage. On the next round if the PC didn't escape it could make another Grapple check and if it succeeded it did another 1d3+3 damage.

I was talking about this with one of my players after the game. What he thinks should have happened is that I roll to hit normally. If the Choker hits it deals 1d3+3 damage (as per a normal attack). Then, due to Improved Grab, it can attempt to Grapple the opponent as a free action. If it succeeds on the Grapple check (and it still has actions remaining) it can then try and Constrict (involving another Grapple check) to do another 1d3+3 damage.

I think that my player's interpretation is correct but I find the Improved Grab and Grapple rules a little confusing so I thought I would just check with the rules boffins here. I want to make sure I run the combat correctly next time around.

Olaf the Stout

 

[the Jester]

I was talking about this with one of my players after the game. What he thinks should have happened is that I roll to hit normally. If the Choker hits it deals 1d3+3 damage (as per a normal attack). Then, due to Improved Grab, it can attempt to Grapple the opponent as a free action. If it succeeds on the Grapple check (and it still has actions remaining) it can then try and Constrict (involving another Grapple check) to do another 1d3+3 damage.

Pretty close... the Constrict ability is (usually) usable immediately upon achieving a hold and doesn't require an action. Also, don't forget that the choker has 3.0 style haste and gets an extra action every round!

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Pretty close... the Constrict ability is (usually) usable immediately upon achieving a hold and doesn't require an action. Also, don't forget that the choker has 3.0 style haste and gets an extra action every round!

So if it does a full attack (plus a standard action) and hits on its first tentacle attack how much damage could it do and how many times could it constrict?

I did remember the extra attack each round in my combat last night, I just don't think I got the Grapple/Constrict/Improved Grab bit right.

Olaf the Stout

 

[the Jester]

So if it does a full attack (plus a standard action) and hits on its first tentacle attack how much damage could it do and how many times could it constrict?

Well, its normal full attack is 2 tentacles for 1d3+3; with its extra action it can attack three times. It does the same damage on a constrict, too.

Also, its BAB is +2. This is important because, even for monsters, iterative attacks are important in a grapple.

Now, if our choker hits on its first attack, and it gets a hold, it deals 1d3+3 for its tentacle attack and 1d3+3 for the constrict. Typically, that would be it (because its BAB is only +2)... but with its extra action, it can constrict again. So we're up to 3d3+9 damage so far. (1 hit + 2 constricts.)

Now, let's change the scenario just a little bit. Let's say that it hits with both tentacle attacks but gets a hold with neither- then takes another attack with its extra action, and then gets a hold. So, in this case, we get 4d3+12 points of damage (3 hits + constrict at the end).

But wait! There's more! Improved Grab uses a free action, not a swift action.

If our choker were unusually intelligent and cocky, and it hit on its first attack and managed to get a hold (and thus constrict), it could release the hold and continue its full attack. And so it could, in theory, hit-constrict-release-hit-constrict-release-hit-constrict!

Now we're at 6d3+18. I don't think I can top that off the top of my head.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

That seems a little powerful for a CR2 creature. Are you sure that's correct?

Olaf the Stout

 

[blargney the second]

Choker warlocks with eldritch glaive and combat reflexes. So much fun.
-blarg

 

[Hypersmurf]

If our choker were unusually intelligent and cocky, and it hit on its first attack and managed to get a hold (and thus constrict), it could release the hold and continue its full attack.

He's using Improved Grab; when he establishes a hold, he draws the opponent into his space.

Now he is grappling; he can't just let go and be-not-grappling. In order to be-not-grappling, he needs to either win an opposed grapple check to escape (in place of an attack), or make an Escape Artist check to escape (as a standard action). The opponent might elect not to contest the check, but it still requires the expenditure of the attack/action.

-Hyp.

 

[the Jester]

He's using Improved Grab; when he establishes a hold, he draws the opponent into his space.

Now he is grappling; he can't just let go and be-not-grappling. In order to be-not-grappling, he needs to either win an opposed grapple check to escape (in place of an attack), or make an Escape Artist check to escape (as a standard action). The opponent might elect not to contest the check, but it still requires the expenditure of the attack/action.

-Hyp.

Ahh, you're right. I overlooked the "no just letting go" factor... after all, they BOTH have to let go to break the grapple.

 

[Jadeite]

Choker warlocks with eldritch glaive and combat reflexes. So much fun.
-blarg

I once used an advanced choker with the Obah-blessed and shadow templates. He was fun. He had 6 +17 tentacle attacks, 15 ft reach, grapple +28 and rending constriction.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

He's using Improved Grab; when he establishes a hold, he draws the opponent into his space.

Now he is grappling; he can't just let go and be-not-grappling. In order to be-not-grappling, he needs to either win an opposed grapple check to escape (in place of an attack), or make an Escape Artist check to escape (as a standard action). The opponent might elect not to contest the check, but it still requires the expenditure of the attack/action.

-Hyp.

So can you just explain to me how I would run an attack and/or full attack with this guy them?

He makes a normal tentacle attack at +6. Do I roll vs the opponents normal AC or his touch AC?

If the attack hits does he do 1d3+3 damage?

After the attack hits, he gets a free grapple attempt to try and pull the opponent into his square, correct?

If that succeeds do I do another 1d3+3 constriction damage? Or do I need to use a standard action to do that? I don't think that I do but I'm not sure.

Ok, full attack now. Say I hit, draw my opponent into my square and constrict with the first tentacle. Can I still try and hit and grapple with the second tentacle?

What about if my opponent tries to escape on his turn now? Does he have to make 2 grapple checks as I have him grappled with 2 tentacles?

What about if I'm facing 2 opponents? If I grapple him with 1 tentacle, do I have a negative to try and hit and grapple a second opponent?

So many questions!

Thanks,

Olaf the Stout