Combat with a Choker

[the Jester]

He makes a normal tentacle attack at +6. Do I roll vs the opponents normal AC or his touch AC?

Normal.

If the attack hits does he do 1d3+3 damage?

After the attack hits, he gets a free grapple attempt to try and pull the opponent into his square, correct?

If that succeeds do I do another 1d3+3 constriction damage? Or do I need to use a standard action to do that? I don't think that I do but I'm not sure.

I don't think you do either. The constrict ability deals damage on a successful grapple check. According to the "Improved Grab" entry in the glossary of the MM5- which, I suspect, is the most recent/last word on grapple in 3.5e- it states:

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has teh constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature's descriptive text).

(emphasis added)

Ok, full attack now. Say I hit, draw my opponent into my square and constrict with the first tentacle. Can I still try and hit and grapple with the second tentacle?

What about if my opponent tries to escape on his turn now? Does he have to make 2 grapple checks as I have him grappled with 2 tentacles?

No, once you're grappling, you have a specific list of things that you can do on your turn. The exception is the "-20" rule, where you can take a penalty of -20 on your grapple check in order to only use the part of your body that you improved grab with to hold the opponent. Otherwise, though, think of grappling as a full-body activity. The assumption is that you're using everything you've got to hold onto (and, maybe, pin, etc.) your foe. You can't double grapple someone, in other words.

What about if I'm facing 2 opponents? If I grapple him with 1 tentacle, do I have a negative to try and hit and grapple a second opponent?

 

[eamon]

Normally, a choker (or any creature with improved grab and constrict) works as follows:

First:
- Attack as normal, striking regular AC, and dealing regular damage (melee attack)
- If you hit the opponent, choose to use Improved Grab and attempt to grapple (free action)
- If you succeed on grappling the opponent, deal constrict damage (no action, constrict ability)
Then, as long as the grapple continues:
- Use any subsequent grapple checks to perform the "damage an opponent" action (attack equivalent action)
- If you succeed at "damage an opponent", deal the damage of the strike that was used for the improved grab and constrict damage. For chokers, this is 2d3+6

There are of many other things you can do in a grapple instead, but generally, most grappling constricting monsters are good at it and will just use "damage an opponent".

Basically, improved grab is a means to start a grapple more frequently; but it doesn't make it any easier, it actually raises the AC you must hit since you now usually attack normally instead of making a touch attack. Secondly, improved grab improves "damage an opponent" so that instead of dealing unarmed damage (nonlethal 1d3 isn't impressive), it deals the same damage as the improved grab attack's weapon.

Constrict further improves improved grab so that the "damage an opponent" in-grapple action does even more damage - both the grab weapon's and the constrict ability's damage.

Aside:[sblock]Nevertheless, as far as I can tell, the original posters actual in-game ruling was correct, if unusual for a choker.

The original poster's choker simply didn't use Improved grab, but elected to start a grapple normally, which is entirely valid (but perhaps a little smart for an Int 4 creature).[/sblock]

 

[Olaf the Stout]

Ok, I think I have this figured out now.

In a round where it only has a standard attack (i.e. surprise round) the Choker will make 1 melee attack with its tentacle (at +6 to hit) vs the opponent's normal AC. If the attack hits it deals 1d3+3 damage.

It then has the option to use its Improved Grab ability to start a grapple. If it wins the opposed grapple check it draws its opponent into its square and deals another 1d3+3 damage with its Constrict ability.

Normally this is all you could achieve with a Standard action. However, Chokers have the Quickness ability so it gets an extra Standard action each round. As such it could use this to make another grapple check to damage its opponent. If it succeeded on a grapple check it would do another 1d3+3 damage.

So in a suprise round a Choker could deal 3d3+9 points of damage if it succeeded on all of its rolls.

I have another question now. Say the Choker has a full round to act. It makes a full attack, hits with its first attack and successfully grapples and constricts.

Can it attack the grappled opponent with it's other tentacle as well?

Or is it not possible for a Choker to do a full attack on 1 opponent if it successfully hits and grapples on its first tentacle attack?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hypersmurf]

I have another question now. Say the Choker has a full round to act. It makes a full attack, hits with its first attack and successfully grapples and constricts.

Can it attack the grappled opponent with it's other tentacle as well?

Or is it not possible for a Choker to do a full attack on 1 opponent if it successfully hits and grapples on its first tentacle attack?

It depends whether or not he's taking the -20.

If he's not, he's grappling, and he's subject to the normal grappling rules. Under grappling rules, you don't get to attack with more than one natural weapon, and you're limited by your BAB.

The Choker normally gets two attacks, because it has two natural weapons. But while grappling, it gets one attack, because its BAB is +2.

Essentially, while he's grappling, his 'Full Attack' is the same as his single attack, unless he can get his BAB up to +6.

-Hyp.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

It depends whether or not he's taking the -20.

If he's not, he's grappling, and he's subject to the normal grappling rules. Under grappling rules, you don't get to attack with more than one natural weapon, and you're limited by your BAB.

The Choker normally gets two attacks, because it has two natural weapons. But while grappling, it gets one attack, because its BAB is +2.

Essentially, while he's grappling, his 'Full Attack' is the same as his single attack, unless he can get his BAB up to +6.

-Hyp.

If the Choker takes the -20 and tries to do something with its second tentacle does that mean that it will also have a -20 on its grapple check when the grappled PC tries to escape?

Olaf the Stout

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the Choker takes the -20 and tries to do something with its second tentacle does that mean that it will also have a -20 on its grapple check when the grappled PC tries to escape?

Yes.

-Hyp.

 

[blargney the second]

Can't the choker attack with a natural weapon at -4 when in a grapple?

 

[eamon]

Normally this is all you could achieve with a Standard action. However, Chokers have the Quickness ability so it gets an extra Standard action each round. As such it could use this to make another grapple check to damage its opponent. If it succeeded on a grapple check it would do another 1d3+3 damage.

So in a suprise round a Choker could deal 3d3+9 points of damage if it succeeded on all of its rolls.

Almost!

Improved Grab:

If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).​

So, you correctly judged that a choker that hits deals 1d3+3 damage, and if gains a hold, it deals 1d3+3 damage as well for a total of 2d3+6. But, on each successful grapple check thereafter, the choker deals damage per the weapon used with improved grab (1d3+3), and constrict: another 1d3+3! So, each successful grapple check deals 2d3+6 damage.

So in a suprise round a Choker could deal 4d3+12 points of damage if it succeeded on all of its rolls.

 

[eamon]

Can't the choker attack with a natural weapon at -4 when in a grapple?

He can, but if he does so, it will simply deal the normal 1d3+3 damage, and he'll need to hit the opponents AC despite the -4 penalty. Generally, if the choker was able to gain a hold, he'll be better off grappling to do damage, since that deals 2d3+6 damage (improved grab + constrict), and presumably he's better at grappling.

Frankly, with the Choker's 4 Int, you're being perfectly reasonable if you assume that the Choker simply always tries to grapple, and fails to realize that it might sometimes just be down to sheer luck that he succeeded at a grab, especially since it will almost always be more likely to succeed at a grapple check than to hit with a mere +2 bonus. That's simpler for you as DM as well.

 

[carborundum]

This is one handy thread - I've think I've finally got it. Time to use as many constrictors as possible

Cheers guys!

As an aside:

I once used an advanced choker with the Obah-blessed and shadow templates. He was fun. He had 6 +17 tentacle attacks, 15 ft reach, grapple +28 and rending constriction.

Oooh - that's nice!

Don't suppose you still have the statblock?