Combo Question - Hand Crossbow And Mystic Theurge

[Nazhkandrias]

Alright, as the subject states, this is a dual question. So, for sake of clarity, I will list them as they are, in two parts...

1. Is there ANY situation in which a hand crossbow is a good idea? I'm designing a Rogue (already proficient with the hand crossbow) for a friend, starting with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. HCs can be fired one-handed with no penalty, and with TWF, using two sounds like a cool idea at first. But since they both do 1d4 damage, and a light crossbow does 1d8 (with a larger range increment), the only advantage I can see is a slightly larger chance for a critical, and even then, the damage for the HC is effectively halved, meaning that it comes out about the same. About all the Rogue will have to show for it is a flashy set of HCs and a -2 penalty to attack. Is there something I'm missing here, or is the HC simply a gimpy weapon? I'm ignoring ease of concealment here, this isn't an urban setting where Sleight Of Hand enters into this.

2. Alright, I love the Mystic Theurge. Nearly uninterrupted spell advancement for TWO spellcasting classes at once, with a mix of arcane and divine magic and more versatility than any other character I can think of?!? It's simply crumbelievable. I've recently become enamoured with the idea of a Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theurge (what really stood out for me is the Battle Caster feat with this - one feat for use of a chain shirt and +4 to AC? For a CASTER? Once again, crumbelievable), but I have a question. Does a multiclass Wizard's forbidden schools apply to other spellcasting classes as well? If I pick Conjuration as my forbidden school, does that mean that, as a Cleric, I will not be able to cast Conjuration spells?

Thanks for your help!

 

[pawsplay]

Battle Caster? Isn't that the one that upgrades in existing ability to cast in armor?

 

[rgard]

Battle Caster? Isn't that the one that upgrades in existing ability to cast in armor?

Yes, you already need to be able to cast in light armor to take the feat, which takes you to medium armor.

This works if you go Battle Sorcerer/Cleric/MT as the BS gets to cast in light armor already.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[nittanytbone]

Handcrossbows:

The advantage of dual-wielding handcrossbows is that you can make two attacks at range with the TWF feat tree instead of with the Rapid Shot feat tree. This is useful if you are usually a TWF type but forced to engage at range, or if you have the opportunity to open the engagement at range (perhaps catching a target flatfooted), thus preventing the bad guy from full attacking you in return.

As with all TWF builds it is most optimal when you have lots of bonus damage on each hand. Sneak Attack, bard song, etc. are all good ways to do this.

The problem comes with reloading your crossbows to maintain high ROF, and dealing with iterative attacks. I find it most useful at low levels before iterative attacks become a concern or as a hold-out secondary option. Investing in Quick Draw/Rapid Reload/etc is just too painful, especially as you ALSO need PBS-->Precise Shot anyways to be a decent ranged warrior. For a ranged specialist its just easier to use Rapid Shot and a bow, and you get superior damage (composite bows add STR to damage as well).

Mystic Theurge:

In the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar, "Its a trap!" It may seem awesome, but MT is WAY underpowered. Being 3 caster levels behind in BOTH of your classes is a killer. That's nearly two spell levels. Just think: While your single-classed brethern are throwing Righteous Might, maximized scorching rays, and Cloudkills, you're still stuck on Fireballs and Prayer.

Furthermore, you get NONE of the advantages of a cleric (decent sized HD, armored casting for all your spells, strong FORT & WILL saves, 3/4 BAB, turn undead progression, domain abilities that grow in power with level) and all of the liabilities of a wizard (ASF in armor for half your spells, small D4 HD, poor BAB, poor FORT save). Furthermore, you miss out on the wizard level 5 bonus feat, which many pure wizard builds pick up merely because PrCs usually don't start until after that point. You also miss out on the save & BAB advantages of going to level 4 in cleric/wizard before PrCing.

I don't believe that Battle Caster doesn't work the way you think it does -- Mystic Theurges do not gain any sort of ability to negate ASF, so you can't upgrade your non-existent ability to cast in armor (a bard can use it to cast spells in medium armor, but a wizard can't take it to cast spells in light armor). Even if you could, its a poor idea: Mage Armor gives +4 bonus to AC that lasts all day (Same as your chain shirt), clerics can wear full plate anyways, and a mithral buckler has 0% ASF (and can be upgraded via Magic Vestment or paying for enhancements) so wizards have access to 0% ASF shield AC bonuses anyways, for cheap.

If you must go this route, I'd suggest looking at Practiced Spellcaster, exploiting Divine Metamagic or Divine Spell Power to the fullest, and avoiding spells with saves or SR. You won't have high level spells at your fingertips so you can't punch through the saves of many foes, so you're better off with indirect tactics such as summoning critters or buffing your teammates. I'd also look at using Cloistered Cleric for the SP at level 1 because you won't be able to be a melee competitor or wear heavy armors anyways.

One way to make MT suck less is to use a class that grants super-fast spell progression as one half of your character. An example would be Ur-Priest, Divine Champion, Sublime Chord, or Blighter (ugh). That lets you "rebuild" your casting capability relatively quickly and helps to catch up.

 

[Twowolves]

The best use for dual hand crossbows is as a double-dose delivery system for poison.

 

[mikebr99]

Alright, as the subject states, this is a dual question. So, for sake of clarity, I will list them as they are, in two parts...

1. Is there ANY situation in which a hand crossbow is a good idea? I'm designing a Rogue (already proficient with the hand crossbow) for a friend, starting with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. HCs can be fired one-handed with no penalty, and with TWF, using two sounds like a cool idea at first. But since they both do 1d4 damage, and a light crossbow does 1d8 (with a larger range increment), the only advantage I can see is a slightly larger chance for a critical, and even then, the damage for the HC is effectively halved, meaning that it comes out about the same. About all the Rogue will have to show for it is a flashy set of HCs and a -2 penalty to attack. Is there something I'm missing here, or is the HC simply a gimpy weapon? I'm ignoring ease of concealment here, this isn't an urban setting where Sleight Of Hand enters into this.

You might want to look at the crossbow sniper feat in phbII... it's for any crossbow though...

2. Alright, I love the Mystic Theurge. Nearly uninterrupted spell advancement for TWO spellcasting classes at once, with a mix of arcane and divine magic and more versatility than any other character I can think of?!? It's simply crumbelievable. I've recently become enamoured with the idea of a Wizard/Cleric Mystic Theurge (what really stood out for me is the Battle Caster feat with this - one feat for use of a chain shirt and +4 to AC? For a CASTER? Once again, crumbelievable), but I have a question. Does a multiclass Wizard's forbidden schools apply to other spellcasting classes as well? If I pick Conjuration as my forbidden school, does that mean that, as a Cleric, I will not be able to cast Conjuration spells?

Thanks for your help!

As others have stated... you need to already be able to wear some level of armour without ACF... to improve that ability with Battle Caster.

And no... being prohibited in casting a school for an arcane caster wont have any effect on any other casting class.

Mike

 

[rgard]

Handcrossbows:

<snip>

Mystic Theurge:

In the immortal words of Admiral Ackbar, "Its a trap!" It may seem awesome, but MT is WAY underpowered. Being 3 caster levels behind in BOTH of your classes is a killer. That's nearly two spell levels. Just think: While your single-classed brethern are throwing Righteous Might, maximized scorching rays, and Cloudkills, you're still stuck on Fireballs and Prayer.

Furthermore, you get NONE of the advantages of a cleric (decent sized HD, armored casting for all your spells, strong FORT & WILL saves, 3/4 BAB, turn undead progression, domain abilities that grow in power with level) and all of the liabilities of a wizard (ASF in armor for half your spells, small D4 HD, poor BAB, poor FORT save). Furthermore, you miss out on the wizard level 5 bonus feat, which many pure wizard builds pick up merely because PrCs usually don't start until after that point. You also miss out on the save & BAB advantages of going to level 4 in cleric/wizard before PrCing.

I don't believe that Battle Caster doesn't work the way you think it does -- Mystic Theurges do not gain any sort of ability to negate ASF, so you can't upgrade your non-existent ability to cast in armor (a bard can use it to cast spells in medium armor, but a wizard can't take it to cast spells in light armor). Even if you could, its a poor idea: Mage Armor gives +4 bonus to AC that lasts all day (Same as your chain shirt), clerics can wear full plate anyways, and a mithral buckler has 0% ASF (and can be upgraded via Magic Vestment or paying for enhancements) so wizards have access to 0% ASF shield AC bonuses anyways, for cheap.

If you must go this route, I'd suggest looking at Practiced Spellcaster, exploiting Divine Metamagic or Divine Spell Power to the fullest, and avoiding spells with saves or SR. You won't have high level spells at your fingertips so you can't punch through the saves of many foes, so you're better off with indirect tactics such as summoning critters or buffing your teammates. I'd also look at using Cloistered Cleric for the SP at level 1 because you won't be able to be a melee competitor or wear heavy armors anyways.

One way to make MT suck less is to use a class that grants super-fast spell progression as one half of your character. An example would be Ur-Priest, Divine Champion, Sublime Chord, or Blighter (ugh). That lets you "rebuild" your casting capability relatively quickly and helps to catch up.

I used the Ur-Priest in my MT build. Again, like the MT in general looks great, but you are limited to one 9th level divine spell per day and that gets annoying after awhile. Not sure as I don't have the book handy, but I think the Divine Champion is only casting spells from the chosen Domain spell list which of course is limited knowing one spell per spell level, but I may have that confused with something else.

Agreed on 'ugh' for the Blighter. Haven't looked at the Sublime Chord in awhile so I don't have any recollection of that one.

 

[joshjurg]

what about that int-based divine caster from heroes of horror ? The Archivist. I would use him to basically have every divine spell in the book. Also - If you can convince your DM of the theurge's weakness, see if he will let you take Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane 180)
so you only need one level in arcane caster.

 

[pawsplay]

Basically, the purpose of the hand crossbow is to Quick Draw, two weapon fighting attack in the first round, preferably with the aid of sneak attack, poison, and/or bane crossbow bolts.

In round two, you drop them and quick draw your shortswords.

 

[Nazhkandrias]

Well, thanks for all the tips! On the note of the Mystic Theurge, yeah, now that I think about it, it is a little underpowered. I'd love to have a Mystic Theurge NPC tag along (quite literally a spell for every occasion), but I'm not sure I'd want to play one. Sorry for the mistake concerning Battle Caster, I forgot that little detail. I guess that if it seems to good to be true, it probably is... unless it's in the hands of a munchkin.

As for the hand crossbows, that dual dose poison is what I was looking for! I neglected to mention that the character that this is for is going to START as a Rogue, but then put most of her levels into Assassin. No ranged combat specialist there, sorry - Death Attack is melee only. The dual dose poison is a great idea, though - it gives a good punch from that 30-foot Sneak Attack range, and she'll be making good use of that poison, since a LOT of points are going to be put into Craft (poisonmaking). Well, this is just perfect for the archetypal Assassin - urban killer, poison as often as possible!

Thank you all for the help, I'm probably going to look into the Ur-Priest now.