D&D (2024) Command is the Perfect Encapsulation of Everything I Don't Like About 5.5e

Are you seriously suggesting that no DM who started with 5e is a good DM? Or counts as experienced after DMing for an entire decade?

I am very dubious about your claim that 5e is awful to DM in the first place, and I think you're going to a pretty extreme place here.

No.
What I am saying is the environment for new DMs in the early portion of five each initial gaming experience was terrible.

Just Terrible.

The DMG was disorganized.
Many of the veteran DMs from 3rd edition 2nd edition and first edition pretty much refused to help them unless they switched over to their editions
The MM didn't match up with CR.
The game was originally written and pushed for a swords and sorcery style game with heroic fantasy rules and those didn't match up.
And the players were new to 5th edition as well and would try to do wacky things or rules lawyer or whatever disrupting think some new players do.

So most of the DMs who are new from 2014 to maybe 2020 will all trial by fire DMs who pretty much tried to do everything on their own. And if they burnt out, they left.
 

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OK, I get it. Some people have to deal with players who will argue with everything they can any time they think it will provide them with additional advantage, and it clearly disrupts their games. That, to me, makes it a plyer issue, and I don't know why people are OK in groups like that, but clearly it's a thing some people are willing to endure.

I don't blame the rules, because in my experience I can use those vague, or open-ended rules, or however you want to describe them, and my players don't become disruptive.

You're clearly adamant it is the rules, not the players, and I'm not going to change your mind, so I guess I will leave it at that.
Again, it's not as bad as you're painting it. It's not that the players are arguing all the time, every time. No one is being unreasonable. That's the thing, no one has to be unreasonable here because, as you say, the rules are open ended. Which means that the players are going to gravitate towards trying to do stuff outside of the box. Not every time. Of course not. Just often enough that it becomes a thing the DM has to deal with.

And, it's not like it's just one spell. It's the fifty or so spells that are in the PHB. So, you spend a couple of years hammering off the rough edges with your group. Great. But, then Dave moves away and Jeff gets a job, so, now you have two new players at your table and you get to start having the same conversations all over again. Then, the year after that, another splatbook drops, dropping another dozen or so vaguely written spell effects onto the group and you spend time every session or two hammering the rough edges off those books. Then, six months later, Peter gets a new job and you're looking for another player which means you get to have the same conversation about the fifty PHB spells plus the dozen splatbook spells all over again. By now, you've finished that campaign, whatever it was, and you're starting up a new one. But two of your players have moved on and now the five people sitting at your table are completely different thant the five you had at the beginning.

Which means you get to hammer the rough edges off those vaguely worded spell yet again.

It's just so exhausting. Because it never, ever ends. It just keeps going around and around, not because anyone is unreasonable, but because while you had that conversation with Players A through E, now your group consists of A, C , and G, H and I. And those three new players haven't had those conversations with you yet.

It's not a player problem. It's a problem with the mechanics. And it is so easy to resolve. The new Command spell is exactly how you resolve this. You tighten up the language a little bit. Not a lot. Just enough to cover 90% of the stuff that the spell was being used for anyway and shave off that 10% that was causing the headaches. Because, again, playing silly buggers with the vaguely defined effects of spells isn't creative. Using a Command spell to lure the troll into that carefully crafted kill box after the party has hammered out strong tactics and plans? THAT'S creativity.
 

My experience looking at how people responded to questions for the first, as noted, 3-4 years of 5e's run strongly reflects this. As does my experience with my first...at least two, probably three 5e DMs. They were inspired to give it a shot. The opacity of the text, the difficulty of getting actually useful advice from other people, and the rules letting them down led to disappointment and frustration, and they haven't DM'd again since. (That number would be four, but the fourth actually did come back to DMing about six years later.)
...and what is it being compared too?

5e has a mature internet making it easier to find examples but I would argue that the DM churn rate has always been high. The only thing that seemed good (to me) about 4e was that it was easy for new DMs and it was designed so that there was a minimum experience although the rules made it more difficult to run a game that did not fit within 4e's narrower lane.

I never looked for DMing advice. It was always learn by doing. I learned by watching my first DM, then by running pre-made modules, then by adapting pre-made stuff, and finally by building my own stuff.

I am not sure I have ever read a DMG. I have only ever used it for additional rules, magic items etc.

Now, I have been helping my 12 year old as he wants to DM with very little experience as a player and I do give advice. If another DM asked me for advice, then I would be more than happy to provide it.

I would probably not seek advice from a message board. I may look up to see if there is a discussion on how other people ruled on something and that is everywhere.

Honestly, though, why were those DMs you reference not asking for advice from their own group? The easiest solution would be to discuss it as a group and just make a call that everyone agreed too and as an experienced player, then why did they not come to you?
 

No.
What I am saying is the environment for new DMs in the early portion of five each initial gaming experience was terrible.

Just Terrible.

The DMG was disorganized.
Many of the veteran DMs from 3rd edition 2nd edition and first edition pretty much refused to help them unless they switched over to their editions
The MM didn't match up with CR.
The game was originally written and pushed for a swords and sorcery style game with heroic fantasy rules and those didn't match up.
And the players were new to 5th edition as well and would try to do wacky things or rules lawyer or whatever disrupting think some new players do.

So most of the DMs who are new from 2014 to maybe 2020 will all trial by fire DMs who pretty much tried to do everything on their own. And if they burnt out, they left.

If it was so terrible we would not have seen double digit growth for years. DMing has always been largely learn as you go. But if a DM burns out and leaves? Well, that's happened in every edition.
 

No.
What I am saying is the environment for new DMs in the early portion of five each initial gaming experience was terrible.

Just Terrible.

The DMG was disorganized.
Many of the veteran DMs from 3rd edition 2nd edition and first edition pretty much refused to help them unless they switched over to their editions
The MM didn't match up with CR.
The game was originally written and pushed for a swords and sorcery style game with heroic fantasy rules and those didn't match up.
And the players were new to 5th edition as well and would try to do wacky things or rules lawyer or whatever disrupting think some new players do.

So most of the DMs who are new from 2014 to maybe 2020 will all trial by fire DMs who pretty much tried to do everything on their own. And if they burnt out, they left.
I would need to see the receipts here. I have never seen any DM who refused to give advice unless someone switched to their preferred game.

Most I have encountered in person and online were more than happy to provide advice about being a DM.
 

...and what is it being compared too?

5e has a mature internet making it easier to find examples but I would argue that the DM churn rate has always been high. The only thing that seemed good (to me) about 4e was that it was easy for new DMs and it was designed so that there was a minimum experience although the rules made it more difficult to run a game that did not fit within 4e's narrower lane.

In many ways it was more difficult to run because there were so many ongoing conditions and effects, not to mention monster's reactions. Throw in a bazillion unique powers and the occasional player that "creatively" interpreted a power to do something it did not do at all. At low levels it was easier in some ways, at mid-to-high levels I found it more difficult even as an experienced DM.

I never looked for DMing advice. It was always learn by doing. I learned by watching my first DM, then by running pre-made modules, then by adapting pre-made stuff, and finally by building my own stuff.

I am not sure I have ever read a DMG. I have only ever used it for additional rules, magic items etc.

Now, I have been helping my 12 year old as he wants to DM with very little experience as a player and I do give advice. If another DM asked me for advice, then I would be more than happy to provide it.

I would probably not seek advice from a message board. I may look up to see if there is a discussion on how other people ruled on something and that is everywhere.

Honestly, though, why were those DMs you reference not asking for advice from their own group? The easiest solution would be to discuss it as a group and just make a call that everyone agreed too and as an experienced player, then why did they not come to you?

Which is the way it's always been. Now new DMs have the advantage that if there isn't a DM that can help them in person they can find it online. Admittedly some online advice is bad, but people have grown up learning out how to filter what works for them and what doesn't.
 

No.
What I am saying is the environment for new DMs in the early portion of five each initial gaming experience was terrible.

Just Terrible.

The DMG was disorganized.
Many of the veteran DMs from 3rd edition 2nd edition and first edition pretty much refused to help them unless they switched over to their editions
The MM didn't match up with CR.
The game was originally written and pushed for a swords and sorcery style game with heroic fantasy rules and those didn't match up.
And the players were new to 5th edition as well and would try to do wacky things or rules lawyer or whatever disrupting think some new players do.

So most of the DMs who are new from 2014 to maybe 2020 will all trial by fire DMs who pretty much tried to do everything on their own. And if they burnt out, they left.
Are you describing your personal experience or do you have information from a group of DMs?
 

If it was so terrible we would not have seen double digit growth for years. DMing has always been largely learn as you go. But if a DM burns out and leaves? Well, that's happened in every edition.
A product can have massive growth but have a portion of it be bad.

That's not something that's inconsistent.
 


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