Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Edena_of_Neith]

I gotta admit, the half-orc barbarian is scary (well, ok, all the 1st edition barbarians were scary, but add in nasty half-orcs and that's scary! Krusk is not someone I'd want to mess with.)
I see they gave elves the Reverie ability from the Complete Book of Elves 2nd Edition as a standard ability in 3.5: the ability to lay in a trance for 4 hours. Elves no longer have infravision ... that's a major weakening of the race (it's DARK in a forest at night! Been there.)

Now any race can become any class or multiclass. But Favored Classes are important, and would seem to represent a holdover from the classic conceptions of the races from older editions. I mean, dwarves were always good fighters, elves loved magic, halflings were natural rogues, and so on.

I note that you can be proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons if you are a fighter, or certain other classes. THAT is a huge strengthening of the fighter class: imagine had many Weapon Proficiencies you would have had to take in 2nd Edition to gain proficiency in all those weapons!
The Bastard Sword (a favorite weapon if ever there was one) is an Exotic Weapon, though. WOTC is teasing us with that one. (You can use it two-handed normally, but must take a Feat to use it one handed. Fair enough. Nothing like wielding a 4 1/2 foot long weapon with one wrist ...)

(chuckles)
Dwarves have wider heads than humans. Elves have longer heads than humans (illustrations pages 14 and 16.) Halflings have much longer heads than humans, relative to their size (page 20) and it gives them a feral aspect in my opinion.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

If I missed anything outstanding so far, tell me. My powers of observation are not that good. And I welcome any input.
It's a 300 page book. I'll take a lot of posts for me to make all my comments and questions on a book of this size (but, after all, you need to know this book to play. I would argue that players and the DM alike need to know this book by rote, if possible.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Gnomes look a lot like overgrown fey of the leprechaun/grig type.
One look at a 3.5 gnome, and you know you have trouble.

No more will elves with infravision sneak up on the clumsy half-orcs!
Now, it's the wily half-orcs who will sneak up on the elves ...

I see that is is MUCH HARDER now for ANY character or monster to make his saving throw.
No more 'I only need a 2' statements!
You only advance in meaningful terms in one type of saving throw: the others are just messy. (When you are 20th level and you only have a 8 to 11 saving throw against 2/3rds of the types of incoming attacks ... well, I think the 20th level character in question would be panicking, back in 2E. By 14, I mean a base save of 14 to 17 - 6 (+ 6 on the 3.5 charts.)
So yes, all the spells (or nearly all) in 3.5 allow saving throws now. But does it matter? You're still going to die, unless the spell or power hits your one good save category.

So let me get this right:

A 20th level fighter gets 4 attacks with his good hand. One is at + 20 to hit (what you call Base Attack Bonus), one is at + 15, one is at + 10, and one is at + 5.
That 20th level fighter also gets ONE attack with his off-hand, at + 20 to hit.
But if he uses that one off-hand attack, he is at - 6 to all attacks with his good hand, and - 10 to all attacks with his off-hand.

The 20th level wizard gets 2 attacks with his good hand, at BAB + 10 and + 5.
The 20th level wizard can take 1 attack with his off-hand at BAB + 10 (but the penalties of - 6 and - 10 apply.)

Do the dexterity bonuses cancel out any of the - 6 / - 10 penalties?
That is, if I had a character with a 19 dexterity (the infamous elf ...) would his penalties drop at once to - 2 / - 6 because there is a + 4 bonus for 19 dexterity?

They gave the monk a d8 for hit points??!! HOORAY. The poor monk has been underpowered since he was first introduced in 1st edition.

 

[Terwox]

You might wanna try the rules forums if you get any funkier questions than this, although, the rules forum is more nitty-gritty stuff than this. But heck, you've been around, you know these things, this is prolly the best place!

Wizards are somewhat limited in how much it costs to buy more spells than the two you automatically learn per level. They're also limited by scribing costs and spellbook size costs. Further limited by the DM not making spell-scrolls available, if they're so inclined.

You'll still have situations where you "only need a two" to make a save... but yeah, unless they compensate, characters will have some bad saves in some areas. Cloak of resistance+5, save feats if you have feats to spare as a fighter, +4 stat bonus items, etc, will make it easier.

yeah, 20th level fighter, no feats, all stats = 10, one weapon: 20/15/10/5, two unbalanced weapons: 14/9/4/-1 main hand, 10 off-hand.

Dex doesn't cancel out the penalties. The ambidexterity feat cancels the penalties.

Might wanna check the rogue's gallery for some high level characters with normal gear amounts? You'll get less theoretical numbers there... well, might be hit or miss. I don't recall seeing many typical high level characters there, either.

Favored class isn't THAT important because prestige classes don't count for class levels.

Anyway, glad to hear you bought the books, I always enjoy your posts.

 

[FireLance]

So let me get this right:

A 20th level fighter gets 4 attacks with his good hand. One is at + 20 to hit (what you call Base Attack Bonus), one is at + 15, one is at + 10, and one is at + 5.
That 20th level fighter also gets ONE attack with his off-hand, at + 20 to hit.
But if he uses that one off-hand attack, he is at - 6 to all attacks with his good hand, and - 10 to all attacks with his off-hand.

The 20th level wizard gets 2 attacks with his good hand, at BAB + 10 and + 5.
The 20th level wizard can take 1 attack with his off-hand at BAB + 10 (but the penalties of - 6 and - 10 apply.)

Yes, this is basically correct. Note that other bonuses and penalties to attack rolls may apply, e.g. bonuses for high Strength, bonuses from magic weapons, bonuses from a bard's Inspire Courage ability, etc.

Do the dexterity bonuses cancel out any of the - 6 / - 10 penalties?
That is, if I had a character with a 19 dexterity (the infamous elf ...) would his penalties drop at once to - 2 / - 6 because there is a + 4 bonus for 19 dexterity?

No, but a character can take the Two-Weapon Fighting feat (feats are a new concept - check the PHB chapter) to reduce the penalties to -4/-4 with two one-handed weapons or -2/-2 if at least one of the weapons he uses is light. The feat requires a minimum Dexterity of 15, so the idea that high-Dexterity characters are better at fighting with two weapons is still retained.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(chuckles)

I see you Don't Get To Outrun the Big, Bad, Barbarian (mages, take note!)
Heh, start a barbarian with 12 hit points, add 4 for an 18 constitution, then Rage and gain 2 more. 18 hit points. Not bad.
Then add that Diehard Feat where you can function at negative hit points.
THAT'S who I want in the front of the party, defending my cleric! (And I see that clerics have an orison that stops the barbarian from dying from going to negative hit points, based on what I've read further on in the book. The cleric starts with 3 of those, too.)

I like the Uncanny Dodge ability of the barbarian a lot. It seems from reading further that everyone gets caught Flat-Footed, typically, but not anyone with Uncanny Dodge. So the barbarian will start the fight with full Dex bonuses.
If you're not wearing armor (and from reading further on it seems wearing armor in 3.5 is quite onerous) then you're dead, if caught Flat Footed with no dexterity bonus to AC.

Trap sense is fine, but I can't see a barbarian messing around with traps. That's for the rogue to do ...

Improved Uncanny Dodge: Wolf-Pack Tactics will no longer work on the barbarian ...

Damage Reduction: LOL. I punch the barbarian! I do 3 points of damage. DM: No, you do NO damage. But the Big, Bad Barbarian is now mad. You can't outrun him, so I suggest you find an immediate, inventive way of ... placating him?

Greater Rage: If what I am reading is true, a 20th level barbarian using Greater Rage, who had an 18 constitution before using Greater Rage, would gain 60 hit points. That is because the hit point bonus at 18 con is + 4, but the hit point bonus at 24 con is + 7, and the barbarian gains 6 points of con from his Greater Rage. Multiply 3 times 20 levels, and you have 60 hit points.

Indomitable Will: I would have said that a + 4 wouldn't mean that much to a 14th level barbarian. But considering the new saving throws, it literally doubles his saving throw bonus.

Tireless Rage: So Fatigue causes - 2 to Strength and Dexterity, right? That alters BAB, damage rolls, and AC normally, right? They are all penalized?

Mighty Rage: It seems to me this would give the 20th level barbarian an extra 80 hit points (4 hit points per level, because an increase of 8 to constitution equals + 4 to hit points.) Correct?

And ... just WHAT are Krusk's wrists made out of? Solid steel? I doubt I could even PICK UP that giant axe, much less hold it upright in one hand! LOL. I wouldn't want to arm wrestle that guy.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(embarrassed look)

What does funky (or funkier) mean? Someone mentioned it above.

I'll go to the Rules Forum is that is what everyone wants.

Back in 2nd edition and 1st edition, the poor mage only got 1 new spell free at each level. Anything else had to be bought or swapped with the players (and in 1st edition, it was made clear that you had to make it an unholy nightmare for wizards to try to buy spells from NPCs.)

What you said confirmed a question: The person gets a BAB with his off-hand (for that one attack allowed with the off-hand) equal to his best BAB with his good hand. Of course, there is the - 6 / - 10 penalty ... no big thing ...

Are you SURE that Dexterity bonuses in no way affect the penalties for two-weapon fighting (or otherwise employing the off-hand) ? In 1st and 2nd edition, they did.

Ambidexterity? There go the drow again

I will look at the Rogue's Gallery. But first I have to know things well enough that I'm not reading gibberish, and I'm not to that point yet. (I see the numbers, but what the numbers mean are another matter.)

I will hold off on prestige classes. I'm just starting on CLASSES right now.

And thanks for the compliment. Cheers, Terwox!

Yours Truly
Edena_of_Neith

 

[FireLance]

Tireless Rage: So Fatigue causes - 2 to Strength and Dexterity, right? That alters BAB, damage rolls, and AC normally, right? They are all penalized?

Almost right - a penalty to Strength changes your attack bonus, but it doesn't change your Base Attack Bonus.

I'll go to the Rules Forum is that is what everyone wants.

I am not a moderator, but I think it's fine to stay here. From what I've seen, this thread is mostly about your impressions on the 3.5e system after a 7-year hiatus. We don't need to trouble the rules gurus if you have a few basic questions along the way.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ah, thanks, FireLance.
I now have double confirmation that Dexterity doesn't help with two-weapon fighting. Finis that 2nd edition rule. Indeed, it's really hard it seems in 3.5 to conduct two-weapon fighting.

Yeah, I see about BAB. That's similar to the old charts for the base THAC0 for classes in 1st and 2nd edition. That never changes. But strength penalties can cause temporary to hit penalties.

Yeah, I see about BAB. That's similar to the old charts for the base THAC0 for classes in 1st and 2nd edition. That never changes. But strength penalties can cause temporary to hit penalties.
I guess in 3.5 they call that an Attack Bonus penalty. Official terminology, no? And there is no such thing as a Base Attack Bonus penalty, I'm guessing. Just making sure of the wording here.

 

[wingsandsword]

I'll go to the Rules Forum is that is what everyone wants.

You don't have to go there, some of us might not be as skilled with the number crunching, but we certainly can help you.

A lot of the things may look one way on paper, but in play it comes out another. Coming straight from AD&D, some things might look odd compared side-by-side, but when all put together 3.5 works quite well.

As for "make that save on a two", it can come up with high-level foes against low-level threats (don't forget that effects from magic items use the saving throws based on their creator, not their user), so a Wand of Sleep could have a DC of 11 (for randomly generated items, the game assumes the minimum ability score to cast the spell, so 10+1+0 for a 1st level spell cast by a 11 Int Wizard), which is "Don't roll a 2" to a mid-level Cleric or Druid.

Like the saving throws, don't forget that you get bonuses from ability scores to all of them. Constitution gives you a bonus to Fortitude, Wisdom to Will, and Dexterity to Reflex, plus feats and racial abilities that can augment them, plus magic items and class abilities. 3e can be a bit of an adding game to count in all the various bonuses you may get.

In practice saving throws are much the same as other editions, especially at lower and mid levels. Saving Throws could be incredibly difficult if the threat is way out of your league (Bahamut's breath weapon is DC 50 IIRC), or incredibly minor (like a Sleep wand), it all scales with level.

As for attack bonuses, remember things like feats (Weapon Focus), Strength bonus, weapon enchantments, class abilities, and all the other things that add on.

The Wizard known spells per level thing really isn't an issue. They still are limited in how many they can cast, and as was said they still have to buy/research all those spells, and carry copies of them around. It really doesn't unbalance the Wizard.

Yeah, two-weapon fighting is hard to do, because it's pretty powerful. It's typically best left to characters who are going to specialize in it (like some Rangers) or when it would be better to get lots of attacks in instead of fewer attacks which are more likely to hit (like taking on lots of weak foes).