Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Edena_of_Neith]

A bard's magic comes from his heart? I realize that's a metaphor, but are they saying that a bard's magic comes, then, from a fundamentally different source than that of the wizard and sorcerer? The bard taps a different power source? Just asking ... (looks embarrassed again)

A bard's magic comes from his soul? Do they mean this literally? (It's a straight question: there is no reason why a person or a person's soul could not be the repository of overwhelming power. But if so, it has roleplaying and character building implications.)

Can someone outline a more definitive example of how a bard summons magic? (I mean, they could have said a bard evokes magic from his music, but they did not. They said a bard draws magic from his soul, then emotes it through music or in other ways. That is something totally different. I'm nitpicking, sorry ... but it is crucial to character development and roleplaying.)

I see they kept, to some extent, the idea of Bardic Colleges.

Crazy as this sounds, I get this overwhelming impression that gnomes would make the best bards. (EDIT: Looking back in curiosity, I see that bard is the favored class of gnome ...)

Bards have two good saving throw categories. A major plus (seems like a MAJOR plus.)
Bards stink, as usual, in spellcasting. But, it's no worse than 2nd edition from what I remember. The bonus spells allowed in 3.5 do make a difference here, for the bard.
If bardic spells are based on Charisma, they definitely come from a different power source than the wizard's, and they are not at all cast in the same way! Just my opinion.

I remember the 1st level bard from 1st edition. He was a 7th level fighter and a 7th level thief. He had a ton of hit points. Now he has a d6 for hit points. How the bard has come down (but then again, everyone won't be running in terror when the bard plays something out of tune, someone throws an orange and it splatters all over the bard's face, and then the bard gets up and ...)

I see the bard stinks with weapons relative to the other fighting classes in 3.5 (but, in 2nd edition to be proficient with all 'simple' weapons would be an overwhelming advantage.) He also has the long sword and short bow, and many would say that is all he needs ...

The bard can cast spells in Light Armor? Again, his way of casting spells is WAY different from the wizard, as is his source.
Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition! Leather armor was absolutely useless.)

I see that a bard can only 'know' so many spells per spell level. The penalty once applied to all wizards is still applied to him.

If a bard can cast spells without preparation, that is a major strengthening of the class. In the old rules, all the spellcasting professions had to spend 15 minutes per level of the spell to memorize it.
Thus, a bard would have had to have spent 45 minutes memorizing one 3rd level spell. It was a crushing problem (since nobody has that kind of time in the middle of an adventure to spend) and many DMs just let memorization be a brief thing.

Bardic Knowledge: I love it. 20th level bard. You. You ask the bard a question about your childhood. Bard proceeds to re-relate to you your entire childhood (including everything you did not remember.) You're an evil character in the party, trying to hide that fact? Not from the bard.

(is puzzling over Bardic Music currently ...)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hey there, wingsandsword. Gotcha.

 

[Numion]

Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition! Leather armor was absolutely useless.)

In my experience this is not at all the case. Maximum dexterity bonuses to AC made light armor the most commonly used variety in my games. At higher levels mithral plate might be more popular, but all the archers and even some meleers will rather have light armor to get the maximum possible dex bonus to AC. (Hmm.. and mithral plate is light armor, actually, is it not?).

If playing with lower attributes, that is not the case, of course. Medium armor might be the most useless

 

[MerricB]

G'day, Edena!

The other part: the 10 + spell level requirement for Intelligence seems similar to 2nd edition.

Actually, it turned up in 1E as well, although with different values..

The idea of increasing ability scores once per 4 levels would have been a cherished dream in 2nd edition. It was all but impossible to increase ability scores in the older editions. And ability scores above 18 (in a few cases 19) were impossible without very powerful magic. Now, you can just ... have it. Start with an elf with 19 dexterity, go from there (actually, start with an elf of 20 dexterity, because they get a + 2 to dexterity, and they aren't capped at 19 at the start.)

It's a big change. In AD&D, ability scores were compressed at the top end. (As I recall, it took 10 wishes to increase one point from 16 onwards). 3e flattens the projection and extends it upwards. There are *lots* of things that are potentially stronger than humans, so the scale accomodates them better.

I gotta admit, the half-orc barbarian is scary (well, ok, all the 1st edition barbarians were scary, but add in nasty half-orcs and that's scary! Krusk is not someone I'd want to mess with.)

We had a 4th level PC ranger get killed by a 1st level half-orc barbarian due to an unlucky roll. (Critical with greataxe? Not fun).

Elves no longer have infravision ... that's a major weakening of the race (it's DARK in a forest at night! Been there.)

Elves now have low-light vision. They see as well in moonlight as humans do on a sunlight day (see DMG 296, Low-light vision). By starlight, it's like humans with moonlight.

Dwarves, with darkvision, do much better underground.

I note that you can be proficient with all Simple and Martial Weapons if you are a fighter, or certain other classes. THAT is a huge strengthening of the fighter class

It's nice. The main effect is that when the DM gives you a shiny new weapon, you're not going "Argh! I'm not proficient in it!"

Mind you, with all the Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation feats and Improved Critical, etc, you do have favoured weapons.

(Incidentally, the non-proficiency penalty is -4 for *all* classes now).

Are you SURE that Dexterity bonuses in no way affect the penalties for two-weapon fighting (or otherwise employing the off-hand) ? In 1st and 2nd edition, they did.

Really, really sure.

They gave the monk a d8 for hit points??!! HOORAY. The poor monk has been underpowered since he was first introduced in 1st edition.

The 3.5e monk is a treat. It's a really interesting class now.

A bard's magic comes from his soul? Do they mean this literally? (It's a straight question: there is no reason why a person or a person's soul could not be the repository of overwhelming power. But if so, it has roleplaying and character building implications.)

Well, once you go to Magic of Incarnum, the power of the soul is more important...

It actually says, "A bard's magic comes from the heart". Charisma is the determining force and, in 3e, Charisma not only determines how charming you can be, but the force and strength of your personality. You'll find that the strength of many monster's innate magical powers is determined by their Charisma scores.

As opposed to 2e, bards don't write their spells down. Instead they only "know" a limited number of spells. Whether these are gained by an innate gift for magic, or through received learning through their training is somewhat obscure.

Can someone outline a more definitive example of how a bard summons magic?

The actual act of casting the spell is exactly like how the wizard or cleric does it. However, instead of having to prepare the spells from a spellbook or pray for the spells, the phrases and gestures of the spells are always available. Note that they don't prepare spells in advance - they cast them 'on the fly', but only have the knowledge of a limited number of spells.

Crazy as this sounds, I get this overwhelming impression that gnomes would make the best bards. (EDIT: Looking back in curiosity, I see that bard is the favored class of gnome ...)

Not crazy at all. That's a change from 3e, btw, where the favoured class of the gnome was the illusionist. However, the 3.5e bard is *much* closer to the 1e illusionist than the 3.5e illusionist is...

If a bard can cast spells without preparation, that is a major strengthening of the class. In the old rules, all the spellcasting professions had to spend 15 minutes per level of the spell to memorize it.

The rules for preparing spells (no longer called memorisation) underwent a major change.

The caster must first be rested (8 hours).
Then it takes 1 hour to prepare the spells. In the case of the Wizard, this means preparing them from a spellbook. In the case of a Cleric or Druid, praying for them.

In the case of a Bard or Sorcerer, 15 minutes is all they need, refreshing the mind.

Clerics gained the ability to cast cure spells spontaneously (so a Bless spell can be swapped out at any time for a Cure Light Wounds).

Wizards are fairly similar to 1e, although due to the rules on casting defensively in combat, they're far more effective in a melee.

Bards and Sorcerers can just use any spell they know - but it's a limited list.

So, a 20th level Wizard doesn't take 7 days to prepare all their spells any more.

Bards stink, as usual, in spellcasting

You'd be surprised.

A 2nd level bard can cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter, one of my favourite 2nd level Wizard spells. By 16th level, they get access to 6th level bard spells - which include a few 8th level Wizard spells! (The Wizard gains access to 8th level spells at 15th level).

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Ah, thanks, FireLance.
I now have double confirmation that Dexterity doesn't help with two-weapon fighting. Finis that 2nd edition rule. Indeed, it's really hard it seems in 3.5 to conduct two-weapon fighting.

Not at all. One feat is all it takes. At that point, a longsword + dagger gives you an additional attack at -2 to both attack rolls. This gets good once you factor in the Rogue's sneak attack ability.

I guess in 3.5 they call that an Attack Bonus penalty. Official terminology, no? And there is no such thing as a Base Attack Bonus penalty, I'm guessing. Just making sure of the wording here.

There's a handy glossary on page 304 of the PHB.

The Base Attack Bonus is derived from your class & level, and only changes when you gain levels.

However, your attack modifier with various weapons does get modified.

The rules use terms like "+1 morale bonus on attack rolls" and "-1 penalty on attack rolls".

Cheers!

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm looking at the Bardic Music abilities.

What do they mean by su and sp (after words like countersong, fascinate, etc.) ?
Are they referring to supernatural and spell-like ability?

I know that like bonuses do not stack in 3rd edition. Different kinds of bonuses do stack. There seems to be a lot of different kinds of bonuses. So far, I've heard of, for Armor Class alone:

Armor bonus
Shield bonus
Dexterity bonus (which can be cancelled out by the type of armor worn)
Enhancement bonus (I do not entire understand what enhancement means)
Deflection bonus (I do not entirely understand that one either, despite the obvious meaning of the word deflection.)
Dodge bonus (I think I got that one down ...)
Morale bonus
Competency bonus (LOL ... you can add to your competency in defending yourself!)
Situational bonus (being on lower ground, prone, etc.)
Exalted bonus (I think, and I don't know anything more about it)

Any other types of bonuses? (You may not be able to stack, but there are things out there they never had in 2E, for you to use instead. And it was quite rare that 2E DMs let you stack armor (plate armor with chain mail underneath??) and magical items were rare (Yes, I saw the + 5 cloak, + 5 armor, + 5 ring, + 5 shield, high dexterity approach, but I think you can do better than that in 3.5E, even without stacking.)

Concerning the Bardic Music:

Countersong is pretty clear. I remember that from 1st and 2nd edition.
I think I know what a Perform Check is, too. Roll 1d20. Add Charisma modifier. Add rating in Perform. A 1st level bard could have a Rank of 4 in Perform, so if he did you'd add 4.
So I roll a ... 10. Add 3 for the bard's 17 Charisma. Add 4 for his Perform level. That equals 17. That is the saving throw mentioned that creatures can use, if it is higher than their rolls.
About right?

Fascinate: I don't have to go to fantasy to understand this one. Just try interrupting someone who is engrossed in listening to music. If you survive the response, you'll understand fascinate.
Interesting ability. Bard sees 4 orcs, starts playing. Orcs sit down and listen. Or, bard sees barroom brawl imminent. Bard fascinates would-be instigator of brawl. Brawl is averted.
Again ... bard rolls 1d20. Rolls 10. Add 3 for 17 Charisma. Add 4 for Perform 4. 17. That is the Will Save orcs or would-be brawler have to make to escape Fascinate effect.
About right?

Inspire Courage: If 3.5 allowed stacking of like bonus types, there'd be no point in this. It gives a Morale bonus to BAB and to damage. It gives a + 1 to BSB (Base Save Bonus) against fear and charm.

Inspire Competence: Prior to tonight, I had never heard of a Competence Bonus. Now I see there is one. This one is + 2, but it affects only skills (not a small thing ...)

Suggestion: I read that a wizard's spell DC (Difficulty Class) is 10 plus the wizard's intelligence bonus + the spell level. Here, the bonus is 10 plus the charisma modifier plus 1/2 the bard's level. I don't know how powerful Suggestion is in 3.5. Will have to read the spell.
I just considered something. It's sorta humorous, I think. Powerful creatures like drow and illithid make it a point to learn Common. That's a mistake, since it makes them subject to this attack.

Inspire Greatness: There's that Competence Bonus again: + 2 to Attack Rolls, + 1 to Fortitude Saves, gain 2d10 hit dice (does this mean the character is 2 levels higher for all purposes? A wizard would gain 2 levels and new spells briefly? Monks would gain the benefits of being 2 levels higher with new special abilities?) and appropriate hit points plus constitution bonus (does this mean that, when the creature loses those bonus hit points, it instantly dies? That is, it only had 3 hit points left and when the temporary hit points went away, it dropped to - 15?)

Song of Freedom: I will have to read Break Enchantment.

Inspire Heroics: + 4 Morale Bonus to all saves, + 4 dodge bonus to AC.

Mass Suggestion: Will have to read the Suggestion spell.

If several bards of differing levels are present, and each uses one of the powers above, do the effects stack?
For example, if one bard is using Inspire Courage, another Inspire Greatness, and yet another Inspire Heroics on my character, wouldn't he get:

+ 2 Morale Bonus for saves against fear and charm (8th level bard)
+ 2 Morale Bonus on Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls (8th level bard)

stacked with ...

2 extra levels (additional abilities?)
2d10 hit points plus constitution bonus for 2 levels.
+ 2 Competence Bonus on Attack Rolls. + 1 Competence Bonus on Fortitude Saves.

stacked with ...

+ 4 Morale Bonus on all Saving Throws.
+ 4 Dodge Bonus to Armor Class.

Which would mean my character would get ...

+ 2 Morale Bonus for saves against fear and charm (8th level bard)
+ 2 Morale Bonus on Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls (8th level bard)
2 extra levels (additional abilities?)
2d10 hit points plus constitution bonus for 2 levels.
+ 2 Competence Bonus on Attack Rolls. + 1 Competence Bonus on Fortitude Saves.
+ 4 Morale Bonus on all Saving Throws.
+ 4 Dodge Bonus to Armor Class.

But, because the same types of bonuses don't stack, it would be ...

+ 4 Morale Bonus on all Saving Throws (but not + 6 versus Fear and Charm, because that is also a Morale Bonus, which wouldn't stack with the + 4 Morale Bonus)
+ 1 Competence Bonus on Fortitude Saves (total + 5 bonus to Fortitude Saves)
+ 2 Morale Bonus on Attack Rolls and Damage Rolls
+ 2 Competence Bonus on Attack Rolls (total of + 4 to Attack Rolls, since Morale and Competence stack)
+ 4 Dodge Bonus to Armor Class.
2 extra levels (additional abilities?) plus 2d10 hit points plus Constitution Hit Point bonus for 2 levels.

Is this correct?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Cheers to all of you. And thanks for the feedback so far!

A wizard only needs AN HOUR to prepare ALL of her spells? LOLOL.
It DID take 7 days (or more) for a 20th level wizard to rememorize her spells. (A single 9th level spell alone took 2 hours and 15 minutes to memorize.)
I've heard stories of nerfing of magic in 3.5, but if the wizard need spend only an hour, that's a MASSIVE empowering of the class.

Ditto the cleric and bard. And, I'm guessing, the sorcerer, druid, ranger, paladin, and anyone else who casts spells.

(Yes, that's right, folks. There was once a time when the hapless 5th level mage, with spells 4/2/1, had to spend 2 hours and 45 minutes to memorize her paltry spell selection. Add your extra spell per level for specialization (necromancer, enchanter, illusionist, etc.) and it would be 5/3/2, meaning 1 1/4 hours plus 1 1/2 hours plus 1 1/2 hours = 4 hours 15 minutes. And, of course, the mage could not be interrupted by ANYTHING during this time. Ah, the joys of running a wizard ... )

My mistake.
I see the bard has the second best BAB progression.
The bard has a different spell list, too, as noted.

So he can wear light armor and cast spells with no penalty, cast spells on the fly without memorization (Preparation now ...), but is limited in spells knowable and number usable.
He can attack with a good BAB, but is limited in the number of weapons proficient in.
He has the Bardic Song abilities.
He has the Bardic Knowledge abilities (more useful than it sounds: DM: You reach the strange city. Players: Do we know anything about this place? DM: No! And no! And no! Bardic Player: Wanna bet?)

And Gimble the Gnome there, has lousy hit points (d6 isn't the greatest ...)

I see the bard does not have any clerical spells or clerical abilities. So he is not quite a Jack-of-all-Trades ... (it takes a cleric, to be a cleric, I always say )

 

[MerricB]

I see the bard does not have any clerical spells or clerical abilities. So he is not quite a Jack-of-all-Trades ... (it takes a cleric, to be a cleric, I always say )

The Bard *does* get cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, cure serious wounds, etc.

What do they mean by su and sp (after words like countersong, fascinate, etc.) ?
Are they referring to supernatural and spell-like ability?

Ability types, as you guessed. (see DMG page 289-290)
Ex: Extraordinary - not affected by Spell Resistance, anti-magic, dispel and doesn't provoke attacks of of opportunity
Su: Supernatural - affected by dispelling and anti-magic field, but not spell resistance and doesn't provoke AoO.
Sp: Spell-Like - may be dispelled, affected by SR, anti-magic and provokes an AoO when used.

I know that like bonuses do not stack in 3rd edition. Different kinds of bonuses do stack. There seems to be a lot of different kinds of bonuses. So far, I've heard of, for Armor Class alone:

There are.

Enhancement bonus (I do not entire understand what enhancement means)

Enhancement bonuses add to existing values. A +3 heavy wooden shield has a +3 enhancement bonus to the +2 shield bonus, giving it a +5 shield bonus in total.

Deflection bonus (I do not entirely understand that one either, despite the obvious meaning of the word deflection.)

Rings of protection give deflection bonuses to AC; they divert attacks away magically.

Competency bonus (LOL ... you can add to your competency in defending yourself!)

Don't think this comes up often.

Mostly, Armour, Natural Armour, Shield, Deflection and Dodge are the most common bonuses to AC you'll see.

I think I know what a Perform Check is, too. Roll 1d20. Add Charisma modifier. Add rating in Perform. A 1st level bard could have a Rank of 4 in Perform, so if he did you'd add 4.
So I roll a ... 10. Add 3 for the bard's 17 Charisma. Add 4 for his Perform level. That equals 17. That is the saving throw mentioned that creatures can use, if it is higher than their rolls.
About right?

Pretty much. As a rule, you'll have the modifiers for your skills already calculated on your character sheet.

e.g. Evan the Bard has 10 ranks in Perform (string instruments), a masterwork lute (which adds a +2 circumstance bonus), a 17 Charisma (a +3 bonus) and the feat Skill Focus (Perform stringed instruments), which adds another +3. All together, he has a +18 to Perform (string instruments), which I'd mark on the character sheet.

The Perform check (1d20+18) would then set the DC for the Bardic music abilities. (Note, Evan is probably a 7th level bard!)

Inspire Courage: If 3.5 allowed stacking of like bonus types, there'd be no point in this. It gives a Morale bonus to BAB and to damage. It gives a + 1 to BSB (Base Save Bonus) against fear and charm.

In fact, it gives a morale bonus to attack and weapon damage rolls, and a morale bonus to saving throws against charm and fear effects. It doesn't modify the *base* values. They remain constant.

Inspire Greatness: There's that Competence Bonus again: + 2 to Attack Rolls, + 1 to Fortitude Saves, gain 2d10 hit dice (does this mean the character is 2 levels higher for all purposes?

No. Just some. The character counts as 2 levels higher for seeing whether spells affect them, but their personal power with spells, etc. is not increased.

Two bards both Inspiring Courage will not stack their effects.

Cheers!

 

[Particle_Man]

There are some ways that Dex is relevant to two weapon fighting:

There are feats that reduce the penalties for two weapon fighting, or that give even more attacks. These feats all require a progressively higher Dex score before you can even take the feats.

The ranger class allows one to access those feats as class abilities without needing to meet that prerequisite. But the ranger can only use those class abilities if wearing light armor or no armor, which would make a high dex score very useful to keeping one's armor class up.

 

[WayneLigon]

Can someone outline a more definitive example of how a bard summons magic? (I mean, they could have said a bard evokes magic from his music, but they did not. They said a bard draws magic from his soul, then emotes it through music or in other ways. That is something totally different. I'm nitpicking, sorry ... but it is crucial to character development and roleplaying.)


The bard can cast spells in Light Armor? Again, his way of casting spells is WAY different from the wizard, as is his source.
Based on what I'm reading, it seems to me that Light Armor is all but useless (it was most certainly all but useless in 2nd edition and 1st edition! Leather armor was absolutely useless.)

The Bard summons magic in whatever way you want the Bard to summon magic, but mechanically it means nothing; he still 'casts the same way as Wizard' (or any other spell casting class) in that he obeys all the same rules they do unless there is a specific instruction not to (for instance, all Bard spells have a verbal component, even if the spell says differently).

His way of casting isn't different from a Wizard's just because he can wear Light Armor. A Wizard can wear Light Armor, or Heavy Armor, or whatever armor he wants - he has to buy the specific feats to do so, and the arcane spell failure means he'll suck as a spellcaster while doing it, but he can wear it. He can evern wear it if he has no feat, he just sucks even worse. There are a few feats in other books that reduce this, and some special armor qualities can reduce it a bit further.

Light Armor isn't useless. There are a number of things that only work if you're wearing Light armor or less (like some Ranger special abilities).