Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[monboesen]

Well several things are off.

For instance if that Dire bear was grappling Claire all Lidda's attacks would have been Sneak attacks. Losing your dex bonus is a consequence of grabbling. She would also face a chance of hitting Claire. Another consequence of grappling.

As already mentioned the Dire bear gets an automatic chance of grappling if it hits with a claw attack. It can take a -20 penalty in order not to be treated as grappled itself.

Casting Summon monster is a full round action, so the polar bear won't arrive until just before Hennets next action.

You don't crit with an 18 even with improved critical and a bow. The bow would have a threat range of 19-20*3. And when you roll damage for a critical you roll all the dice instead of multiplying 1 dice + modifiers by three.

The Dire bear would get AOO against Lidda if it wasn't grappling. It has a reach of 10 ft.

Anyway this fights ends as soon as Hennet ends it. A good start would be Web to calm things down (and keep people from attacking) followed by Cone of cold (man he has some lousy feats. Both combat casting and Skill focus (concentration) are such bad feats that I have never seen anyone seriously contemplating choosing them).

 

[DethStryke]

The bear claws, and the bear bites. The bear has lunch.
2. 15. 16 (bite.) +19, +19, +13. Hit, hit, hit.
1. 3. (1st claw) 3. 1. (2nd claw) 3 and 2 (bite) +10, +10, +5. 38 points of damage.
Claire is killed, her head bitten off.

Now, would a bear attack and continue to attack a target that has gone limp? If one claw was enough to take her down to 0 or below, would the bear continue attacking her or would he then attack Grom, who is right next to it? I am under the impression that the bear would kill everything still kicking and then eat after the coast was clear. This would give Claire a chance to stabilize and possibly not die.

If I were DMing, that is probably the course I would have the bear take (knock her unconscious and bleeding, but not unload on her and eat her while there were plenty of other lively morsels running around) as it is no fun to have a character die when the player has not really done anything wrong or stupid.

 

[BeauNiddle]

Claire and Narrin both do Spot checks for Lidda, as Lidda called down to them. Both, by some fluke, roll natural 20s, which is an automatic success.

No it's not. A natural 20 is an automatic hit and an automatic save. But for skills it is merely a 20. Similarly a 1 is an automatic miss and an automatic fail for saves (and runs the risk of kit being damaged) but for a skill it is merely the number one.

This means that is somebody ends up in a situation where they have +20 to hide then they will NEVER be spotted by somebody without a positive modifier (or until the situation changes in the spotee's favour).

This also means a Take 20 is not a guarantee of success it is merely the best that that person can ever hope to acheive (and it takes 20 times as long as a single check [2 minutes for normal actions] and can only be done if there is no penalty for failure).

It's also worth noting that a Take 20 is different from a Take 10. A Take 10 is merely an average attempt at a skill which only takes the same amount of time as a normal check but can only be done if the person is in a state of calm (not being attacked, hurried, buffetted by storm winds, etc.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(reads all the posts above)

Hey, thanks folks. Thanks for the input here.
I'm making mistakes hand over fist. But I'll get better. At the beginning of this thread, I could not possibly have attempted the combat above at all.

How would things have gone if YOU were writing the story, from Round 2 onward?

How would you have had things go, with Claire, Narrin, Grom, Lidda, Henneth, and the dire bear, if you were running them? (assume Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan are occupied with the Damaran vipers)

Let's say that Round 1 (where they all ran a lot, see the previous page of this thread, and the top of this page) has occurred already.
We need Round 1 to have occurred as it did, to jury-rig a situation where all the characters would engage in melee.

Anyone?

EDIT: Here is what happened in Round 1, the way I did it:

- Lidda is no killer, and is reluctant to sneak attack either Claire or Narrin. Furthermore, sticking around means the survivor of her sneak attack will get to her. She hears the fight at the top of the hillock; her party is in trouble.
Lidda turns and runs back up the gradual slope, moving at quadruple speed. She moves 80 feet.
- The dire bear, with a speed of 200 feet running, runs 100 feet through the underbrush, then 10 feet into the clearing, stopping at 5 feet from Claire and 35 feet from Narrin.
- Claire isn't waiting for the bear. Claire runs after Lidda, determined to kill the halfling who was a member of the group who wounded her friends. She has a run of 120 feet, so she ends her round next to Lidda, 80 feet up the slope. Then she does a Spot check and realizes in sudden shock that this is the wrong halfling.

Claire: You're not her!
Lidda: I don't know you. Outta my way!

- Grom just simply hates elves. A Spot check shows him that Claire, running up the slope, is indeed an elf. He does a listen check. She sounds like an elf too. That's enough for him. He changes direction, charging anglewise towards Lidda and Claire.
He was 100 feet behind the bear, and 200 feet from the clearing. He now runs at an angle for 120 feet, placing him about 100 feet from Lidda and Claire (actually, it's a triangle: 230 feet long, 85 feet wide, and Grom is creating the third side with his run. Anyone remember the equation for that one?)
- Hennett does an all out run to get to Lidda, seeing she is being overtaken by her foes. He moves 120 feet straight down the slope, screaming deprecations, yelling threats at everyone approaching Lidda. (Being a sorcerer, he's going to back up those threats in a real nasty way, too, in a couple of seconds.)
- Narrin does a Spot check, and sees Grom. (He also sees the bear. He could hardly miss that!)
Narrin is enboldened by the appearance of Grom, the fact the bear is veering off after the assassin, and in a case of bravado decides to charge after Lidda and Claire himself.
Narrin's run is also 120 feet. He charges up the slope, ending his move 5 feet from Lidda, and 10 feet from Claire (Lidda is now flanked, but with Improved Uncanny Dodge, this means nothing for her.)
Narrin: Try to shoot me in the back, will you? Now you die!

At the end of the round:

Lidda is 80 feet up the slope, 415 feet from her friends at the top (who are in a fight for their lives against the Damaran vipers.)
Claire has moved up next to her, on her left side, 5 feet away.
Narrin has moved up next to her, on her right side, 5 feet away.
The bear is 80 feet back, at the edge of the clearing (which means, it will catch all of them next round, if it keeps coming. And it IS coming. It's lunchtime.)
Grom (who hopes the bear eats the halfling while he kills the elf) is 100 feet from Claire, 105 from Lidda, 110 feet from Narrin, and about 110 feet from the bear.
Hennett, REALLY yelling threats now - seeing that Lidda has been overtaken - is still 195 feet away, directly upslope.

(Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan, remember, are out of the fight unless Lidda can reach them, because they have their hands full with about a dozen attacking Damaran vipers, and they are out of line of sight on the far slope of the hillock.)

Beginning of round 2 ...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I didn't think of that tactic, obviously.
Take a 5 foot step, then take an action that would normally provoke an AOO.
A spellcaster's best friend, THAT one!

-

With that tactic, Lidda is much more dangerous. There is no way Narrin or Grom can stop her from filling them full of holes (with her bow shots.) They can attempt to grapple: that seems their only reasonable chance against Lidda.

DethStryke, I totally agree. The bear would have stretched Claire out with one claw (then Claire would have pretended to be dead, if she was still above 0 hit points) and gone on to attack Grom.
Grom, after being clawed and bit, would have most decidedly gotten out of there (a Withdrawal action.) Then he would have tried to decide what to do next.

-

Well put! If the bear grapples and thus loses it's Dex bonus, Lidda would most certainly sneak attack.
Can she sneak attack twice as a Full Round Action? She is allowed 2 shots with her shortbow on a Full Round Action.
What about Lidda's Precise Shot Feat? Wouldn't that negate her chance of hitting Claire, when she is firing into a grapple?

-

Ok, once the dire bear has someone grappled, it will strike at them with it's claw/claw/bite routine (all natural weapons) at -4.
Or, it could attack with it's claw/claw/bite routine, and the moment one of it's claws hit (the first one, hopefully, for the bear) it would grapple as a free action, then claw/bite at -4 for it's remaining attacks.

The bear would go for a pin (claw, hit, free action grapple, other claw, bite, then pin next round) but it says in the book that the bear can't claw/claw/bite a pinned opponent.
Or can it?

 

[kenobi65]

Take a 5 foot step, then take an action that would normally provoke an AOO.
A spellcaster's best friend, THAT one!

Absolutely. The fighter's just engaged you, Mr. Wizard, in melee? No prob. 5' step back, and fry him.

 

[IcyCool]

Can she sneak attack twice as a Full Round Action? She is allowed 2 shots with her shortbow on a Full Round Action.

Any attack that Lidda makes which falls under the qualifiers for sneak attack is a sneak attack.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I withdraw my statement about the usefulness of the DDG Feats.
Unless you got all the DDG Feats at 1st level (which is totally illegal, not to mention impossible) forget it. Being a Generalist in 3.5 doesn't pay. That's obvious, from this thread and the example combats.
For example, Lidda is able to take on both Grom and Narrin because she is specialized. Specialization pays. The more specialized, the better.

Perhaps you could take Generalist Feats as a package (assuming you take the 2 feats gained from flaws, in Unearthed Arcana.)
But the logic goes against that too.
If you are going to specialize, you need to start immediately. You can't wait until 2nd or 3rd level.

Following my logic further, multiclassing is a bad idea. Someone pointed out fighter/mages stank in 3.5. It seems I must agree with his assessment.
The exception to this would be classes that stacked with each other, such as rogue/barbarian (?, or wizard/sorcerer?, fighter/ranger?) Even then, it sounds risky.

I am told the Prestige Classes are better than the classes. You get more for your money (experience points) per level in a PrC than with a normal class.
If so, then everyone should take prestige classes, because the need for specialization requires it. The more specialized, the better. The more specialized, the more likely you are to stay alive.
Thus everyone will be a prestige class, or a prestige class/prestige class.

Even if you are running a gestalt character, it seems to me the above logic applies (your DM is going to throw harder monsters at you anyways.)

So no fighter/wizard/clerics here! No way. The benefits of being versatile are more than offset by the penalty of non-specialization. That equals a dead character.

UNLESS ...

Unless Generalization comes as a free package at 1st level, before you take your first Feat.
Of course, Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Rogue, all represent Generalizations of a sort, and they are, in effect, free packages.
Now, the trick is how to find ways to obtain more Generalization skills for free, at the start, before taking Feats or Skills ...

-

EDIT: If Lidda sneak attacks the dire bear, while it is grappling Claire, then:
Lidda would take her 5 foot step away from Narrin (to avoid drawing AOO from him.)
Lidda fires: 7. 15. +13 is 20. +8 is 23. Both of these hit the bear.
Damage is:

2. +3. +6d6 (5, 3, 2, 4, 1, 2) is 22 points, and:
3. +3. +6d6 (6, 5, 2, 2, 2, 5) is 22 points.
44 points of damage.

Ouch.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But remember - when you make a ranged attack at someone that's grappling, there's a chance you'll hit someone other than your target. You're supposed to determine who's actually hit randomly.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Narrin: It's just you and me now, assassin.
Lidda (softly) That is very true.

Lidda feints.
Opposed rolls: Lidda's Bluff (no ranks, Cha -1) against Narrin's Sense Motive (no ranks, Wis +0)
Lidda 19, Narrin 10. Narrin adds his +5 BAB to the check, but it is not enough.
Lidda pulls off the Bluff, denying Narrin his Dexterity bonus. She can Sneak Attack him.

(If Lidda had 18 charisma and Improved Feint, this would be a truly devastating attack. Which means, high charisma and Improved Feint would probably be good for a Rogue, no?)

A befuddled Narrin attacks:
4. Misses.

Lidda fires 2 arrows at Narrin. Both are considered Sneak Attacks.
3. 9. +13. +18. Modified 16, 27. Narrin is AC 18 for the +3 celestial armor, and it saves him from one shot (Lidda rolled really badly.) The other hits.
Damage: 2. +3. +6d6. (6, 3, 3, 6, 6, 1) 30 points of damage. Narrin only had 42 to start with.
Narrin is Clobbered (as per the DMG.)
Had the other shot hit, Narrin would be dead.

If Claire was dead (or if Lidda thought she was) this attack would have been unarmed.
Narrin would have gotten an AOO. 16. +11 is 27. Missed.
Then Lidda rolls a 12 on her attack, +9 BAB. +1 Str. 22. That hits.
Damage 1d2 + 6d6. 2, 4, 3, 1, 5, 4, 2. +1 Str. 22 points of non-lethal damage.
Narrin is, once again, Clobbered (as per the DMG.)

And Lidda would continue until Narrin went down, so she could take him alive and force him to reveal the whereabouts of the healer. She knew Claire was seeking the healer, after listening to Claire and Narrin argue in the clearing.