Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Staffan]

Studded Leather is typical rogue gear because masterwork Studded Leather is the heaviest armor with no Armor Check Penalty to all those skills.

Or, at later levels when you have some more money, a mithral chain shirt.

 

[Particle_Man]

A mithril breastplate however, is light armor. The most powerful light armor in the core rules.

What about Celestial Armor from the DMG?

 

[danzig138]

My good friend Edena proves that there is yet hope for Diaglo.

Man, I try to believe that there's always hope, but this one, yeah, this idea might strain that belief a little too far.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Comments of my own on your comments:

Mithril Plate Armor is Light Armor? Hehe. I didn't know that. I'll bet everyone wants one. (Nothing like using magic, to overcome mundane penalties.)
Medium and Heavy Armor seem great for characters without a Dexterity bonus (which is to say, many characters and most ordinary people.) Get caught Flat-Footed without armor, and you're dead! (And think of Braveheart or Return of the King. Would you want to be in one of those giant melees, greatswords and all, without Heavy Armor?)
Just a thought. Not a statement (I'm not qualified to make statements here. I'm not! )

I notice clerics must use the 10 plus spell level rule now. That weakens the class very slightly, but only very slightly (after all, most cleric characters are going to have 16 Wisdom or better at the start.)
I'm glad they kept the bonus spells for clerics. I'm really happy to see they give bonus spells to the other spellcasters for their high attributes (casting one spell per day at first level as a wizard stank.)

I've read the Critical Rules. Nasty. And some weapons are a lot better at criticals, like that funny looking knife (The Kukri.) You get double, triple, or quadruple the damage (before Strength modifiers.) 2 - 16 isn't bad damage for a long sword.
3 to 36 points for a Great Axe Critical? As I said, you (being drunk and feeling superior) punch Kruski the Barbarian for 3 points. You do no damage (due to Kruski's damage reduction) but you make Kruski mad. You better find a really good way of apologizing really quick, because you cannot outrun the barbarian!

Funny thing, but it seems to me the Faerie would make good multiclassed barbarian/bards, based on what I've read of barbarians and bards. After all, the Faerie use music and illusion and enchantment, are lore wise, like to dance and sing, are outdoorsmen and acquainted with living in the harsh wilderness, and tend to fly into unholy fits of rage when you break one of their esoteric customs. See that cute atomie? Don't anger him.

Elves may have light light vision, and that's all fine and well. They still can't see in the Forest at night.
Even in deciduous forests, it is dead dark at night in the summer and early autumn. In pine forests, it's twilight at mid day in the summer when the sun is shining. At night, it's so dark Moria would like bright in comparison.
And, if you live in a northern climate, you know full well that the moon and stars are usually blocked by clouds (Michigan: been there, done that.)
Poor elves ...

I was astounded at the giving of proficiency in all Simple and/or Martial Weapons to the various classes.
What this means to me is that 1st level represents an amateur knowledge of the weapon in question, and not a professional skill (sorta like Arilyn Moonblade when she was 15 and first met Kymil Nemesin, not the Arilyn Moonblade who met Danilo Thann!!)
The fact you can level without training, and take other classes without training, in the core rules, reinforces that notion.
And that, in turn, would indicate that high levels (such as level 10) indicate great proficiency, but not so great as in 2nd edition (where you had to study for 20 years to obtain Proficiency in just a couple of weapons.) Arilyn would have been at least 10th level, when she met Danilo Thann, in my opinion.
Just my impression.

I see clerics have Favored Weapons. They do not have to take a Feat to gain proficiency in that weapon. THAT'S nice (but I have a lot more to say about clerics below.)

I'll get to Magic of Incarnum as soon as I can. I must get through the PHB and DMG (appropriate parts) first. Otherwise, what I read in Magic of Incarnum won't mean anything to me.

If a bard's magic comes from 'the heart' I must assume that this means it comes from his physical body and mind, as well as his soul.
Same with monsters whose power is based on Charisma (vampires, anyone?)

Ok, it's Spell Preparation, not Spell Memorization.

I see that a + 4 bonus (of any sort) is a HUGE thing in 3.5. In 2nd Edition, it was ok (at low level, it was impressive) but in 3.5 it seems it's a big thing even at 20th level.
Likewise, a - 4 penalty (of any sort) is a huge penalty.

More shortly ...

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Sadly, my eyes aren't what they were 4 years ago, during the first and second IRs. I get eyestrain more rapidly (been then again, I'm 38.) Bear with me if I'm slower. I expect to be replying to this thread for days, if not weeks.

More comments on your comments:

The bard DOES get cure spells? Ok ... THAT makes a difference (But she's Dorothy! The Witch is Dorothy? Well ... that makes a difference ...)
Ok, where is the bard's backstabbing ability?

I see they categorize abilities as, what ... Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like, and Spells. One of those rules you have to know by rote, because so many things are affected by it.
Magic Resistance (now Spell Resistance) seems to be weakened by this new rule. Anti-Magic is definitely weakened (yes, the troll DOES continue to regenerate in your Anti-Magic Shell ... I read about the troll. )

Ok, the Enhancement bonus is in ADDITION to the 'Magical Bonus' of 2E. + 3 Shield with + 4 Enhancement. The 3 is the 2E Magical Bonus converted. The 4 is the Enhancement bonus.
I've heard you can have + 10 Shields this way. LOL. Where do (did) I get one of those for my 2E character? ...

So, the Deflection bonus diverts attacks? That is important for many reasons. Someone fires a gun at your character, for instance (or, a plasma bolt from a particle cannon ) the Deflection bonus would work against it. It would work against thrown rocks by giants, ballistae bolts, and the blast wave of an explosion (such as, a whole keg of smokepowder going off 20 feet away.)
Right?

Competency Bonus: Well, the bard does have to be high level to grant this type of bonus.

Skill checks (thanks for the input on the bard (ala, masterwork lute, 17 charisma, skill focus (whatever that is) and the others. Thanks much. I'm puzzling it out.)

Circumstance bonus: I didn't know Masterwork items added Circumstance Bonuses. That is a new one. Can weapons and armor that are Masterwork Items add Circumstance Bonuses?

If Evan the Bard rolled a 10, his modified score would be a 28, then. That's because he has a + 18 to Perform. Thus ... well, it says others have to use the bard's Perform check as their saving throws (for certain Bardic Musical Abilities.)
Does that mean they use a 10? Or do all the bard's modifiers come crashing in, meaning they need a - 8 to succeed in their rolls (miss save only on a natural 1) ?

Right. Base values (Base Attack Bonus, Base Save Bonus, Base Skill) aren't altered. They are affected by modifiers, but they themselves stay the same. Got it.

Bardic Inspire Greatness: It sounds like the character gains a simple 2d10 hit points (plus Con bonus for 2 levels.) I'll leave it at that (plus the other abilities as stated for Inspire Greatness.)

I see. No, they wouldn't. Because two bards using Inspire Greatness would cause two sets of the same kind of bonus, and the same kind of bonuses never stack. I guess a simple rule of thumb would be: No matter what the circumstance or possible interpretation, two bonuses of the same kind never stack. Can't go wrong with that!

I previously said that I thought a + 4 / - 4 bonus or penalty was huge in 3.5. Thus, that - 6 / - 10 penalty for two weapon fighting is nothing short of colossal. Drizzt Do'Urden took a lot of Feats, to overcome that one!
I notice the Ranger gets all those two weapon feats easily. I'm not to the ranger quite yet, but he sounds pretty scary!
And you say he does as well, Particle Man. Yeah, quite scary (Artemis Entreri, eat your heart out. )

I'm just saying that if the Bard draws magic from the body, mind, and soul, and not from an extraplanar source, underlying chaos, or other concept, it has roleplaying consequences. Obviously, not much in the way of mechanic consequences, but bigtime roleplaying consequences and story consequences.
Incidentally, I see no reason why ALL the modern instruments (such as violin, cello, oboe, bassoon, french horn, trombone, etc.) couldn't be in the campaign world. Elves, dwarves, and others have had millennia to create such items.
It would affect the 'medieval flavor' of the campaign, but it would give the bard a lot more versatility (ok, if the bard shows up with an electric guitar, THEN perhaps something is out of place in a medieval setting ... )
Perhaps the Bard can cast spells in Light Armor (whereas the Wizard suffers the Arcane Spell Failure chance) BECAUSE he casts spells from the body, mind, and soul, and not from an extraplanar source?

If I was a Ranger, I'd rather wear no armor than Light Armor, if I had an extremely high dexterity. Armor is just ... well ... inhibiting when you want to walk through thick underbrush, brambles, swampland, dense lower tree branches, and all the other places rangers go. Just a thought ...

I see they strengthened Two-Weapon Fighting in 3.5, based on your post (+ 2 / + 6 in 3.5 to + 2 / + 2 in 3.0.)
Ok, I see that the Feats can give you a second attack with your off-hand at - 5, and a third attack at - 10. Do dexterity modifiers affect THOSE penalties?

Drow are no longer naturally ambidextrous? IT'S AN OUTRAGE!

OK, I have contradictory opinions on Inspire Greatness. One person says it only adds 2d10 hit points plus Con bonus. Another says it adds 2 fighter levels (that's not a small thing.) It can't be both.

A wizard can change his spell selection AFTER selecting his spells? At 15 minutes per spell. A further strengthening of the class, that one. (I need magic missile to take out those orcs hiding in the trees at the top of the hill? Why sure, I have ... well, I didn't memorize magic missile. But give me 15 minutes, and I'll have it ready!)

Agreed. No DM I ever knew made mages spend that 15 minutes per spell level to memorize spells at the beginning of the day (and almost no DM ever used weapon speed factors, although some did quibble over infravision.)
Had they done so, the adventure would have gone nowhere. (We rest in dungeon room 2 for the next week, while the wizard and cleric regains their spells, before we take on the dragon in room 3. )

I realize 3.5 spells are nerfed in the core book (I couldn't miss it: the complaints were deafening when 3.5 first came out. I agree concerning the Druid's Wildshape ...)
All you really need to do to bring back the Anything Is Possible (or, the Super Spell Mage) situation is go get the 2E supplements and translate the spells directly. Translate spells like Gemidan's Paralytic Missile, Mantle, and Transforming Tune, and your mage will be powerful enough pretty quick!
Fireball allows a save, and monsters get Con bonuses, yes. But if their Good Base Saving Throw Bonus isn't in Fortitude, they are out of luck. Crispy critters. They might have been better off with the 2E saving throws!
I see they nerfed Hold Person massively. That's a matter of a DM's call. He could use the 3.0 version, or bring forward the 2nd Edition version. I guess it's a matter of what kind of game the DM and players want.
Ditto the Haste spell and other spells. Pick and choose. 2nd Edition brought forward, 3.0, 3.5. Up to the DM and players.

Ok, two new phrases to memorize: Spell Preparation and Spontaneous Casting.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

A + 16 bonus on Will Saves for a 7th level character? Even in 2nd Edition, that would have been big. In 3.5, where a + 4 is an enormous bonus, it's incredible. LOL.

Ok, infravision is Darkvision. Gotcha. Will look (they argued a lot over infravision and what it did when I was younger ...)

I see the change in attribute scores. As I said, it seems the old 18/00 is now around a 25, and the old 25 is around a 40.

Everyone gets an equal share of experience automatically? That is a change. It prevents certain kinds of jealousy (but not other kinds of jealousy, sadly.) It also rewards lazy characters ...

I noticed the change in hit points. A bigtime change. But then again, characters can inflict more damage now (as can the monsters. I hope that Stoneskin spell is still in there ...)

I'm not ready to go into Light Weapons, One Handed Melee Weapons, and Two Handed Weapons. THAT looks complicated. But I see what you're saying about wielding a One Handed Melee Weapon and a Small Weapon. I believe that this style was historically popular In Real Life.

I sorta got the impression the Rogue's Sneak Attack was the 3.5 equivalent of the old Backstab (but I'm not to the Rogue yet.) If it works whenever there is Flat-Footedness, Dex is denied, or the opponent is Flanked, it's much more versatile (the old Backstab required Surprise AND attacking the rear of the target ...)

Unnamed Bonuses?

I have G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. Will have a look. Thanks for the tip on that.
Of course, Fireballs still light wooden structures on fire (based on what I've read so far) so those hill giants will be even more angry as their home is now starting to burn down.


Sometimes, the bard reminds me of Sgt Pepper's Lonely Heart's Club Band. (The soldiers in World War I are fighting like mad, and along comes the band, and they all stop and join the parade. Fascinate? Suggestion? LOL ...)

If you have 18 Dexterity, your Dexterity Bonus is equal to what Armor Bonus you'd get from Chainmail (+ 4) which was a popular historical type of armor.
So why wear chainmail? (Because when you're caught Flatfooted, you're dead without it? LOL ...)
As I said previously, I'd prefer to be in Heavy Armor (Full Plate + 8) in a mass combat like those in Braveheart or Return of the King. Dexterity is useless when you're jam-packed amidst a crushing, pushing, writhing, mass of people trying to kill each other. Most of them will strike at your back or sides.

Mithril was also nice. I see they have carried that over to 3.5. Elves and dwarves still make the best armor.
So Elven Chainmail would be Light Armor, give a + 4 Armor Bonus, and allow almost the full Dexterity Bonus. Basically no Arcane Spell Failure Chance.

Imagines a wizard with 10 strength in full plate, helmet, and shield.

Party: We've dressed you in the full plate. You look good!
Mage: (No reply.)
Party: Let's sit down and eat now. Our grog is the best!
Mage: (No reply, does not move.)
Party: The steak smells delicious. Mage, you'll be eating fine tonight!
Mage: (No reply, does not move.)
Party: What's wrong with you, mage?
Mage: (muffled) HELP!

Hmmm ... magical armor doesn't increase your Speed? Noted ...
Amulets of Natural Armor? Would they grant a Natural Bonus to Armor Class? (After all, that would stack with the Armor Bonus, Dexterity Bonus, Dodge Bonus, and so on.)

Uh ... ok. A wizard CAN'T change his spells midday. But he can leave some of his spell slots blank. Still a major empowering of the class (Ok, I memorize my Magic Missile for those orcs up at the top of the hill in the trees.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Eyestrain now. I'll get to the cleric momentarily. Gotta rest my eyes.

In brief, I see they made the cleric into what he should have been when * I * was playing clerics. Jozan the Iconic Cleric is what Edena the Cleric (after which my SN is named) should have been.

 

[wingsandsword]

Mithril Plate Armor is Light Armor? Hehe. I didn't know that. I'll bet everyone wants one. (Nothing like using magic, to overcome mundane penalties.)

Note that it's Mithril Breastplate, not Mithril Plate Mail. Breastplates are normally a Medium Armor (just the breastplate, instead of the full suit of plate mail), while Plate Mail is what you're likely thinking of from earlier editions. It's the difference between just putting on the breastplate, as opposed to the gauntlets, greaves, vambraces and all the other parts of the armor.

I didn't count Celestial Armor because I was meaning a general type of armor, not a specific magic item.

Elves may have light light vision, and that's all fine and well. They still can't see in the Forest at night.

I think the intent was for low-light vision to work at night in natural surroundings, so elves could see at night in their forests, while Darkvision was for underground places like caves. Exact details of light levels might not synch up with the descriptions in the rules. I know that's how I've always seen it played: Low light vision works at night, while you need Darkvision when you're underground without a light source.

I was astounded at the giving of proficiency in all Simple and/or Martial Weapons to the various classes.
What this means to me is that 1st level represents an amateur knowledge of the weapon in question, and not a professional skill

Yeah, proficiency now just means you can use it without penalty. You have the basic level of use and don't look like a fool when you swing it. Your Attack Bonus (Base Attack Bonus, feats, ect.) really show what your training and skill with the weapon is.

Ok, the Enhancement bonus is in ADDITION to the 'Magical Bonus' of 2E. + 3 Shield with + 4 Enhancement. The 3 is the 2E Magical Bonus converted. The 4 is the Enhancement bonus.
I've heard you can have + 10 Shields this way. LOL. Where do (did) I get one of those for my 2E character?

Not quite. "Enhancement Bonus" is the same as "plusses" on a weapon or armor in 1e and 2e. Shields do give a "Shield Bonus" which is the actual physical shield. So a heavy steel shield can give a +2 Shield Bonus, while a light shield gives a +1 Shield Bonus. Then you get the +4 (for example) Enhancement Bonus, for a total of +6 to your armor class if you carry a +4 Heavy Steel Shield. Technically rules exist for bonuses above +5 (like a +10 shield), but they are in the Epic Level Handbook for over-20th-level characters, or they are artifacts.

 

[MerricB]

Mithril Plate Armor is Light Armor? Hehe. I didn't know that. I'll bet everyone wants one. (Nothing like using magic, to overcome mundane penalties.)

Not quite. Mithral Plate is medium armour. (the quote above was in error). Races of the Wild actually sets out all the mithral armours in a table, but the rules are in the DMG.

Medium and Heavy Armor seem great for characters without a Dexterity bonus (which is to say, many characters and most ordinary people.)

You've got it!

I notice clerics must use the 10 plus spell level rule now. That weakens the class very slightly, but only very slightly (after all, most cleric characters are going to have 16 Wisdom or better at the start.)

Not at all. Because they get stat increases along with everyone else, even a cleric with a 14 Wisdom can cast 9th level cleric spells by 20th level.

Note also that in 3e there are ability boosting magic items for each ability score. (Headband of Intellect, Girdle of Giant Strength, etc.) They give either a +2, +4 or +6 bonus, and it is the rare high-level PC that doesn't have one.

I'm glad they kept the bonus spells for clerics. I'm really happy to see they give bonus spells to the other spellcasters for their high attributes (casting one spell per day at first level as a wizard stank.)

You and me both.

What this means to me is that 1st level represents an amateur knowledge of the weapon in question, and not a professional skill (sorta like Arilyn Moonblade when she was 15 and first met Kymil Nemesin, not the Arilyn Moonblade who met Danilo Thann!!)

Keep mentioning my favourite characters from D&D novels, and you're doing fine.

And that, in turn, would indicate that high levels (such as level 10) indicate great proficiency, but not so great as in 2nd edition (where you had to study for 20 years to obtain Proficiency in just a couple of weapons.)

There are training rules in the DMG, but, like most things, don't reflect how many people play the game. (I certainly never used them in 1e or 2e.)

I see clerics have Favored Weapons. They do not have to take a Feat to gain proficiency in that weapon.

Not actually true - the deity has a favoured weapon, which is the form the Spiritual Weapon (once Hammer) appears in. Clerics with the War Domain gain free proficiency and weapon focus in that weapon, but other clerics need to devote a feat to it. (or take a level in Fighter...)

I'll get to Magic of Incarnum as soon as I can. I must get through the PHB and DMG (appropriate parts) first. Otherwise, what I read in Magic of Incarnum won't mean anything to me.

Definitely.

Same with monsters whose power is based on Charisma (vampires, anyone?)

Yep.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

I see they categorize abilities as, what ... Natural, Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-Like, and Spells. One of those rules you have to know by rote, because so many things are affected by it.

Yep. It doesn't come up often, mind you.

Ok, the Enhancement bonus is in ADDITION to the 'Magical Bonus' of 2E. + 3 Shield with + 4 Enhancement. The 3 is the 2E Magical Bonus converted. The 4 is the Enhancement bonus.

No, a +3 shield in 2e would have a +3 enhancement bonus in 3e. What's probably confused you is that a light shield gives a +1 shield bonus to AC and a heavy shield gives a +2 shield bonus to AC. (It's wasn't a +2 shield I was talking about). A +3 heavy shield would give a +5 shield bonus (+2 standard plus 3 enhancement).

Skill checks (thanks for the input on the bard (ala, masterwork lute, 17 charisma, skill focus (whatever that is) and the others. Thanks much. I'm puzzling it out.)

Skill Focus is a feat that gives +3 to one skill.

Circumstance bonus: I didn't know Masterwork items added Circumstance Bonuses. That is a new one. Can weapons and armor that are Masterwork Items add Circumstance Bonuses?

It varies.

Masterwork weapons cost 300 gp more, and give a +1 enhancement bonus to hit (only).
Masterwork armours cost 150 gp more, and reduce the armour check penalty by one. (So they don't encumber as much, and it's easier to use climb, sneak and such in them).
Masterwork items cost 50 gp more (normally), and give a +2 circumstance bonus on related skill checks.

If Evan the Bard rolled a 10, his modified score would be a 28, then. That's because he has a + 18 to Perform. Thus ... well, it says others have to use the bard's Perform check as their saving throws (for certain Bardic Musical Abilities.)

Then they need to roll a 28 for their save, (d20+modifiers). That isn't going to happen often. A natural 1 always fails for attacks and saves, a natural 20 always succeeds for attacks and saves.

On skill checks, there's no automatic failure or success.

Bardic Inspire Greatness: It sounds like the character gains a simple 2d10 hit points (plus Con bonus for 2 levels.) I'll leave it at that (plus the other abilities as stated for Inspire Greatness.)

It's the easiest way to do it.

I guess a simple rule of thumb would be: No matter what the circumstance or possible interpretation, two bonuses of the same kind never stack. Can't go wrong with that!

Correct. It's quite simple. There are two exceptions...
* Dodge bonuses always stack
* Unnamed bonuses always stack.

OK, I have contradictory opinions on Inspire Greatness. One person says it only adds 2d10 hit points plus Con bonus. Another says it adds 2 fighter levels (that's not a small thing.) It can't be both.

The effects of Inspire Greatness are analogous to adding two fighter levels: 2d10 hp is what a fighter would gain, +2 to hit likewise. It isn't actually that, though.

A wizard can change his spell selection AFTER selecting his spells? At 15 minutes per spell. A further strengthening of the class, that one. (I need magic missile to take out those orcs hiding in the trees at the top of the hill? Why sure, I have ... well, I didn't memorize magic missile. But give me 15 minutes, and I'll have it ready!)

No. A wizard can not prepare a few slots and then prepare them later (proportional time; 15 minutes minimum for all preparation).

Fireball allows a save, and monsters get Con bonuses, yes. But if their Good Base Saving Throw Bonus isn't in Fortitude, they are out of luck. Crispy critters. They might have been better off with the 2E saving throws!

Fireball is a Reflex save, btw. Most giants and orcs don't have good reflex saves.

Unfortunately, there are creatures with evasion... and they don't take much damage from Fireballs.

I see they nerfed Hold Person massively. That's a matter of a DM's call. He could use the 3.0 version, or bring forward the 2nd Edition version. I guess it's a matter of what kind of game the DM and players want.

Hold Person gets used on PCs a lot, and it really sucks to be out of the combat. Yes, it got nerfed, but it was effectively "save or die", which is a bit much for a 2nd level cleric spell.

Cheers!