Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Edena_of_Neith]

To William

Yes, Claire should flee. That is a given.
But Claire, like Narrin, suffers from pride and overconfidence. When she levels, she has decided, she will take ranger as her 2nd class. So she has stocked up on touch spells, thinking of herself as a warrior mage (which she is not.)

That is why Claire did not immediately flee or hide, when she heard someone coming, and which is what she ought to have done.
Facing off against a 6 foot 5 warrior in full armor and with heavy weapons was foolhardy, yet that is precisely what she did, before the combat started.
As I said, she believes herself a warrior mage. She isn't a ranger/mage yet, so she is jumping the gun, and serving her wounded friends poorly.
Hopefully, she will survive the encounter with Narrin, but perhaps she will not. Or perhaps he will, indeed, take her prisoner.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(humor, request)

Help me out here, folks.
We've had three example combats. In one (mine) it appears Claire has the upper hand, and will take Narrin prisoner. In another, Claire kills Narrin with no damage to herself. In yet another, Claire simply turns and runs away, leaving Narrin to sulk.
And yet ...
Claire was right there, only 40 feet away, and Narrin had his (enormous) bow ready.

Are you saying that Narrin the accomplished fighter cannot defeat the Cute Elven Mage, the wizard known as Claire?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Repost:

Claire, cute elven mage CR 5
Female high elf wizard 5
NG Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +7; Senses Low-light vision; Listen +2, Search +2, Spot +2
Languages Common, elven, draconic, gnome, sylvan
__________________________________________________

AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10
HP 24 (5 HD)
Immune sleep spells and effects
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4; +2 against Enchantment spells and effects
__________________________________________________

Spd 30 ft.
Melee longsword +2 (1d8/19-20x2) or dagger +2 (1d4/19-20x2)
Ranged longbow +5 (1d8/20x3) or dagger +5 (1d4/19-20x2)
Base Atk +2; Grp +2
Special Actions spells
Spells Prepared (CL 5th, +2 touch, +5 ranged touch)
3 ? Fireball (DC 16), Hold Person (DC 16)
2 ? Protection from Arrows, Melf?s Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray
1 ? Mage Armor, Shocking Grasp x2, Magic Missile
0 ? Acid Splash, Light, Disrupt Undead, Read Magic
Deity Sehanine Moonbow
__________________________________________________

Abilities Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 13
SQ Elf traits
Feats Skill Focus (Concentration), Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Enlarge Spell
Skills Concentration +11 (8 ranks, Con +2), Knowledge Arcana +9 (6 ranks, Int +3), Hide +4 (1 rank, cc, Dex +3), Listen +6 (3 ranks, cc, racial +2), Search +7 (2 ranks, cc, Int + 3, Racial +2), Spellcraft +11 (8 ranks, Int +3), Spot +6 (3 ranks, cc, Wis +0, racial +2)

Possessions: Long sword, short bow, 2 daggers, quiver and 20 arrows, spellbook, fancy travelling clothing



Narrin CR 5
Male human fighter 5
N Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses normal vision; Listen +0, Search +5, Spot +4
Languages Common, Sylvan
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AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20
HP 42 (5 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1
__________________________________________________

Spd 20 ft.
Melee heavy pick +10 (1d6+6/x4) or light pick +9 (1d4+4/x4) or longsword +9 (1d8+4/19-20)
Ranged throwing axe +7 (1d6+4) or composite longbow (Str +4) +7 (1d8+4/x3)
Base Atk +5; Grp +9
Atk Options power attack, two weapon fighting
Deity Tempus
__________________________________________________

Abilities Str 18, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 13, Wis 11, Cha 10
Feats Improved Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (heavy pick), Weapon Specialization (heavy pick), Two Weapon Fighting, Point Blank Shot
Skills Climb +8 (4 ranks, Str +4), Jump +8 (4 ranks, Str +4), Spot +4 (4 ranks, cc, Wis +0), Search +5 (4 ranks, cc, Int +1), Swim -4 (8 ranks, Str +4, Armor -16)

Possessions: Full plate armor, heavy steel shield, heavy pick, long sword, composite long bow designed for 18 strength, throwing axe, quiver and 20 arrows

EDIT: Skills just modified slightly

 

[monboesen]

Are you saying that Narrin the accomplished fighter cannot defeat the Cute Elven Mage, the wizard known as Claire?

Narrin has many things working against him.

1. He is not build to deal with a spellcaster (needs a major will save boost).
2. He has a less than clever feat set and his melee weapon is pitiful.
3. The terrain is woking very much against him (though that's often the case for heavily armoured fighters, actually IMO more than chain shirts aren't worth it. Loss of movement is more of a detriment than lower AC).

If he wins initiative and crits with his fist shot he might win. Otherwise, nope not a chance. Not as long as Claire is being just moderately clever.

 

[The_Gneech]

(humor, request)

Help me out here, folks.
We've had three example combats. In one (mine) it appears Claire has the upper hand, and will take Narrin prisoner. In another, Claire kills Narrin with no damage to herself. In yet another, Claire simply turns and runs away, leaving Narrin to sulk.
And yet ...
Claire was right there, only 40 feet away, and Narrin had his (enormous) bow ready.

Are you saying that Narrin the accomplished fighter cannot defeat the Cute Elven Mage, the wizard known as Claire?

Their stats, as presented, are definitely stacked in her favor.

With no magic items on his side, Claire has a big advantage over him. His specialty is melee, but he is almost certainly not going to get a chance to close unless Claire uses monumentally bad tactics. As I tried to highlight in my example, protection from arrows negates his only non-melee option, whereas hold person has a 50/50 chance of negating him, period.

If he had some boots of striding and springing or perhaps a periapt of wisdom, it might be a little less one-sided. Even a tanglefoot bag would have made life more difficult for her. (For that matter, a level of barbarian instead of fighter would have made distance less of an issue.) But this is also why characters travel in parties -- a cleric on Narrin's side could have made a huge difference, for instance, by casting silence or remove paralysis. (But then, Claire might have had a druid on her side casting entangle...)

This isn't to say the battle couldn't end up with a win for Narrin -- but probably not on an open field with free movement, and mundane gear. If they were walking down perpinduclar dungeon corridors and both came 'round a corner and smacked into each other, they would launch straight into melee and Narrin would be able to use his abilities to the utmost.

If he could get a good grapple on her, she'd be up the creek.

-The Gneech

 

[William Ronald]

To William

Yes, Claire should flee. That is a given.
But Claire, like Narrin, suffers from pride and overconfidence. When she levels, she has decided, she will take ranger as her 2nd class. So she has stocked up on touch spells, thinking of herself as a warrior mage (which she is not.)

That is why Claire did not immediately flee or hide, when she heard someone coming, and which is what she ought to have done.
Facing off against a 6 foot 5 warrior in full armor and with heavy weapons was foolhardy, yet that is precisely what she did, before the combat started.
As I said, she believes herself a warrior mage. She isn't a ranger/mage yet, so she is jumping the gun, and serving her wounded friends poorly.
Hopefully, she will survive the encounter with Narrin, but perhaps she will not. Or perhaps he will, indeed, take her prisoner.

Pride is often the worst enemies of many player characters. Still, I would argue that one of Claire's strengths in this encounter is her greater speed and mobility. If the distances were much closer, Narrin would be in much better shape. However, a person moving in heavy armor is going to make a LOT of noise in a forest.

In your example, I would suggest having Claire force Narrin to lead her to the healer. It would be unwise to try to tie him up. If he grumbles, she can point out that he has given little reason to trust him. If he attempts to attack or flee, use a magic missile or another spell on him.

(If Claire had memorized invisibility, cast it, and fled, you would see a very worried Narrin. He would have no idea if she became invisible or teleported. Hmm, maybe if Claire knows the Symbul she can mntion Narrin to her. Narrin's attempts to waylay the Symbul might be AMUSING.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Then perhaps this is why Claire is so overconfident.
She has encountered enemies in heavy armor before, and defeated them with ease. Her speed and initiative, her touch attacks and ranged spells, have laid them all low.
Her friends have saved her from the stealth and unarmored opponents they've faced. But now her friends are wounded and not with her. She does not know her danger.

Can you give me a better Feat and Skill build for Narrin, so he has a chance of winning?
Assume he has any appropriate non-magical items. He can have masterwork items if you want them. Give him one magical item, also.

 

[BobROE]

Since in monboesen's example Narrin was able to at least hit her, could he end the charge with a grapple attack instead of punching her? Cause that would change things a little I would think (and is always a good way to deal with spellcasters). He could then draw his throwing axe and attack with it (at a -4 penalty but he might as well use it instead of his fist).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Yes, what can Narrin do at the end of his charge?
Assuming Narrin obtains a chance to charge Claire and actually reach her (5 feet away) what are his options?

-

It was posted above:

Knowing that he needs to get closer Narrin drops his bow and charges 40 ft. forward (0 ft.) and slams the elf maiden with his fist (as he does not have the time to draw his weapon). Narrin rolls 12, +9 attack, +2 charge = 23 and hits easily for 1, +4 = 5 points of damage.

If Narrin had the Quickdraw Feat, he could draw his heavy pick (and his long sword too?) and then make his one attack with the large pick (plus his attack with the long sword, because he has the Two-Weapon Proficiency Feat?)
If Narrin is given Quickdraw, he charges, and he can attack with both weapons (the -4 penalty as usual) he downs Claire immediately.

 

[The_Gneech]

If Narrin is given Quickdraw, he charges, and he can attack with both weapons (the -4 penalty as usual) he downs Claire immediately.

Attacking with both weapons would require a Full Attack, which is a full-round action. He can charge and attack with a single weapon. The SRD says, re: a charge, that at the end of your move you may make "a single melee attack." Starting a grapple uses a melee touch attack, so I would rule that yes, you could charge and grapple. Sorta like a tackle.

I'm not sure if the "draw a weapon as part of a move" applies to charge, since theoretically it's a special attack rather than a move action. But purely from a dramatic POV, I don't see why the two actions couldn't be combined.

-The Gneech