Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Storm Raven]

Most of the players I have seen try to obtain a wand of magic missiles of 3rd level or higher caster level. It is more expensive, but can be a useful item. Mind you, avoiding the fight is the best option for this character -- especially with several other lives on the line.

That is more expensive, and more useful. I wanted to stay with basic items for the example though. I definitely agree that Claire's best option is to avoid Nerrin. Obscuring mist followed by expeditious retreat is a good choice.

 

[kenobi65]

3. The 3ed combat engine is not meant for 1 on 1 battle between pc's and npc's. It's made for small group combats (ideally at least 4 pc's with 1 fighter type, 1 skill type, and two spellcasters.) Single pc's are often lacking the abilities to deal with a situation, they are meant to rely on their comrades in arms.

Agreed, and this is particularly true at lower levels. Once you get into the higher levels (say, 14+), magic items, feats, spells, and class abilities can help to make any particular PC a little more self-sufficient.

Also, the example here, of a low-level fighter versus a low-level wizard, is probably the worst one-on-one matchup for both characters. The fighter's slow, and has weak saves, while the wizard has a crummy AC and HPs. This matchup largely depends on who gets the initial drop on the other, or gets the first attack to fall.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Even with the revised characters, Narrin barely beat Claire. Claire could have delivered a coup de grace instead of running, too.
If the reality here is that a beligerent and overly brave mage can actually threaten a fully armed and armored fighter in toe to toe combat (and the above proves she can) then Narrin is going to know this, and take appropriate countermeasures.

So imagine this:

The modified Claire and familiar, the modified Narrin.
Claire rests in the clearing, Narrin spots her.

Narrin realizes that anyone out here alone in the perilous Damaran wilderness is either very powerful, or very foolish.
Looking further, he sees this person is an unarmored girl. It is easy enough to guess she is a wizard or sorceress. She must be a powerful wizard indeed, if she dares to travel the Damaran wastes alone.

Narrin does not put on his heavy +1 Breastplate.
Narrin puts on the Celestial Armor +3 he looted off of a high level adventurer he defeated (and killed) under his dull clothing.
Narrin has modified his clothing so that it blends in with his surroundings. He dons them, then takes up his weapons.

Narrin decides this girl is too dangerous to attempt a parley with. He will subdue her if possible, kill her if he must, take her items, then return to his (magically concealed) lair.

Narrin sneaks (moves silently) through the woods towards Claire.
Claire, being very tired, looked around carefully one time then turned to her rations and water. Thus, she isn't actively trying to Spot or Listen (except casually to the birdsong.)

When Narrin gets very close, they must make opposed checks: his move silently versus her listen.
He rolls an 18. She rolls an 8. Although Narrin has a skill check penalty from his Celestial Armor (it is a small one) and a - 5 penalty for deep undergrowth, he wins the roll. He is not heard. He advances right to the edge of the glade, and Claire is not aware of him.
Claire does not look around for foes, and thus does not gain a Spot check to see Narrin. She is busy with her meal.

Now Narrin can choose to charge and grapple, or:
Narrin can choose to fire his bow, which is nocked and ready, or:
Narrin can change his mind and attempt to parley, or:
Narrin can do something else.

Anyway you cut it, Narrin has the advantage. He has Surprise (I am guessing) and will make an attack during the Surprise Round before initiative is rolled.

-

Once more, Narrin decides to parley. She is such a beautiful girl, a young girl, and obviously inexperienced. What she is doing out here, in the middle of the dreadfully dangerous Damaran wilderness, Narrin does not know. But she is being foolhardy: perhaps she is just young and naive about the dangers here?
She didn't do anything to protect herself. She took no cover, no concealment, left tracks (a Search check easily shows them), and is sitting there in plain sight in the middle of the day. Could she be that inexperienced? Or is this a trap?
But a Spot check and Listen check by Narrin reveal nothing, and Spot and Listen checks on the way down here revealed nothing. Apparently, this girl is just what she seems to be.

Narrin steps out of his cover, no weapons in hand.

A conversation similar to the one posted earlier occurs. Narrin decides to take this arrogant, naive young lady alive (for her own good, if nothing else; without his help, she won't live through the night out in this wilderness, much less live long enough to find the healer in his secret retreat.)

But Narrin did something else, too. He declared a Ready Action. If she starts casting a spell, he open fires with his bow. That means he goes first, if she attempts a Hold Person. And he is hoping a hard hit from his enormous bow will deter any spell foolery.

Claire does begin her Hold Person.
Narrin does fire, and he fires first ...
They are 40 feet apart at this point.

What happens?

(And yes, I will find a gaming group.)

 

[The_Gneech]

Claire would have to also make a fortitude save because of taking more than 50 percent of her hit points of damage in one round.

Actually, it's 50 hit points from a single attack, not 50% of their hit points in one round.

If you ever sustain a single attack deals 50 points of damage or more and it doesn’t kill you outright, you must make a DC 15 Fortitude save. If this saving throw fails, you die regardless of your current hit points. If you take 50 points of damage or more from multiple attacks, no one of which dealt 50 or more points of damage itself, the massive damage rule does not apply.

-The Gneech, practicing rules lawyering so he'll get better at it

 

[sniffles]

Or just take the lessons that are obvious (well, maybe some of this comes from my actual playing experiences with the rules).

1. Fighters suck! At least at anything but fighting (usually in melee). They lack skills, mobility and tactical options. Often they have great trouble getting to the melee where they would shine. The full plate wearing fighters of my campaigns have all been deeply frustrated by their inability to get off those meaty full attacks.

2. It's an enormous advantage for a fighter to start of as something else at 1st level. Ranger and Rogue are both good and popular choices. In fact 3 levels of ranger and/or 4 levels of rogue are a very very good investment for a fighter.
<snip>
10. Try finding some people to actually play the game with. It’s a much more enjoyable experience to learn the rules by playing than by reading

You know, I just have to say I don't agree with points 1 and 2. I've been running a straight fighter for 3 years and I really enjoy playing him. If you don't want to deal with the movement penalties for wearing heavy armor, don't wear heavy armor. My fighter wears chain and has only come near to death once or twice in melee. He moves around a lot. I admit I do miss the lack of general skills, but he's so darned good at what he does that he's fun to play anyway.

However I do agree complete with point #10.

 

[Storm Raven]

Even with the revised characters, Narrin barely beat Claire. Claire could have delivered a coup de grace instead of running, too.

She could have, in round two of my sample combat, but to do so she would have had to stand around near Narrin for the round, and he was going to get to act first. If she stuck around to try to coup de grace him, and he made his save on his action, she is now right next to a hostile enemy who is no longer helpless, and once again needs to move away and hope she can outrun him.

If the reality here is that a beligerent and overly brave mage can actually threaten a fully armed and armored fighter in toe to toe combat (and the above proves she can) then Narrin is going to know this, and take appropriate countermeasures.

We kept mostly to your examples, A slightly modified Narrin would be much harder for her - one that is more mobile, or more focused on ranged attacks, or even one who is mounted, which would negate her movement advantage.

So imagine this:

The modified Claire and familiar, the modified Narrin.
Claire rests in the clearing, Narrin spots her.

Narrin realizes that anyone out here alone in the perilous Damaran wilderness is either very powerful, or very foolish.
Looking further, he sees this person is an unarmored girl. It is easy enough to guess she is a wizard or sorceress. She must be a powerful wizard indeed, if she dares to travel the Damaran wastes alone.

Or just very foolish.

Narrin does not put on his heavy +1 Breastplate.
Narrin puts on the Celestial Armor +3 he looted off of a high level adventurer he defeated (and killed) under his dull clothing.
Narrin has modified his clothing so that it blends in with his surroundings. He dons them, then takes up his weapons.

You have just given him equipment and abilities far beyond his level, unbalancing the challenge significantly.

[snip sample combat]

But Narrin did something else, too. He declared a Ready Action. If she starts casting a spell, he open fires with his bow. That means he goes first, if she attempts a Hold Person. And he is hoping a hard hit from his enormous bow will deter any spell foolery.

You cannot ready outside of combat. In any event, his best option is not to use his "enormous bow" unless absolutely necessary - it is a secondary combat option at best for him. He is a high strength melee fighter, he is almost always better off trying to get into melee.

For example, unless he has a good reason to be otherwise, when outdoors, Nerrin should be mounted, probably on a heavy warhorse. He should have a lance too (1d8+4, piercing, 20 x3). When he starts combat with Claire, he can charge probably hitting her and dealing 2d8 + 8 damage plus an attack from his warhorse likely dealing 1d6+4 damage. His horse's movement will be 40 feet, even while he is riding it, so he can out run Claire, even with his heavier armor on.

 

[William Ronald]

I think that celestial armor is a bit much for Narrin to own. As for the horse, this is allowable. It might be fair to balance the encounter a bit for Claire, as the horse counts towards Narrin's equipment. Also, it is rather hard to ride horses in the woods, and the distance in the encounter would probably be a bit larger. (The horse should be a bit easier to hear or spot.)

 

[kenobi65]

You know, I just have to say I don't agree with points 1 and 2.

Me, too. However, I suspect that monboeson's opinion may be colored by one (or both) of two things:
1) A desire to play a PC who is good at skills, and a lack of interest in playing one who isn't (this is what keeps my wife from playing a straight fighter, and is her recurring gripe every time her cleric levels up).
2) A campaign that places a high premium on mobility and skill use.

When it comes to being able to open industrial-sized cans of whup-ass, pretty much nothing beats a straight fighter. Sniffles is correct, said single-classed fighter is pretty much gonna be a one-trick pony, and not to every player's taste, but it doesn't mean it's not an effective PC type.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

From the new perspective gained in this thread, has comments and questions on the Rogue:

(chuckles) Perhaps Lidda the Rogue is also watching Claire ... and Narrin also. She is scouting for her friends (Tordek, Jozan, and Mialee) and she (like Narrin) came to scout out the situation concerning this girl.
(Tordek, Jozan, and Mialee are several hundred feet away, over the crest of another hillock.)

Lidda has successfully Moved Silently and employed her Hide skills. Claire and Narrin are not at all aware of her (they are so busily engaged in threatening each other, to pay attention to a third danger ... or to the fourth danger, which Lidda has noticed: there is a dire bear about 300 feet away, it's moving this way, and the chitter-chatter in the clearing has aroused it's attention. And dire bears here, in Damara, will attack, kill, and eat humans and elves alike. The dire bear is not aware of Lidda, however. Lidda is an accomplished rogue.)

Now Lidda could attack. She WON'T attack. (her job is to gather information and scout for enemies, and that's what she's doing. She would never attack.)
But what could she do if she did attack, either Claire or Narrin, or the dire bear?

Well, let's say she's 11th level, so ...

She could fire her Light Crossbow. Damage would be 1-8 19-20/x2. She'd have Surprise, so she'd act, then initiative would be rolled (she probably would win initiative and be able to fire again.)
She has the Rogue's Sneak Attack. Claire, Narrin, and the dire bear are all Flat-Footed. They are denied their Dexterity and Dodge bonuses. So her Sneak Attack would go off. Indeed, if she then won initiative after the Surprise Round, she could Sneak Attack a second time.
Damage from her sneak attack is 6d6. Claire and Narrin are both just within her 30 foot range. The dire bear, is out of range still (but not for long, at the rate it's advancing.)

Thus, Lidda could fire at Claire, and inflict 1-8 plus 6d6 points of damage (average 26 to 27 points.) Lidda's bolts are + 3, so the damage would increase to 29 to 30 points. On a Critical, average damage would be 1-8 tripled, +9 (+3 tripled), plus 6d6 (average of 45 to 46 points of damage.)
This may well happen, because Lidda chose the Improved Critical Feat. Her Critical Threat Range with the Light Crossbow is actually a 17-20. With a Critical Hit (doing 45 to 46 per hit) and Improved Initiative (Lidda with her extremely augmented dexterity of 27 is likely to beat all of them to initiative, so with her second shot this comes to 90 to 92 points of damage, or 45 to 46 to both Narrin and Claire - Claire's Protection from Arrows would stop 10 points, and Claire would still die.)

Unless DR 10/magic means that the spell doesn't protect against magical weapons at all, in which case Claire is really dead.

Lidda listens to the heated conversation between Claire and Narrin, learning about the healer for the first time, knowing full well Narrin came down from the hillock (and undoubtedly has a large stash of treasure there), and wondering which of these two people the bear is going to eat first?

(If someone has Lidda's template, and would post it to this thread, that would be great. )

EDIT: And yes, I just massively upgunned Narrin. But he's been defeated enough. It's his turn to overawe some people. Just say he got lucky. Really lucky. He got his hands on something no character of his level should ever have had.
He is not here on his horse because he had to move 3,000 feet from the hillock to the glade, and a horse would have made noise and alerted Claire (who then, might have taken cover, or concealment, or prepared a trap, or heaven knows what else.) Also, there are no roads between the hillock and the glade, so riding would have been hindered (but not halted) by the woodland.
Had Claire been so foolish as to stay on the distant road, Narrin would have taken his horse. But Claire knew better: EVERYONE avoids that road like the plague, since it's an obvious target.

 

[William Ronald]

Lidda listens to the heated conversation between Claire and Narrin, learning about the healer for the first time, knowing full well Narrin came down from the hillock (and undoubtedly has a large stash of treasure there), and wondering which of these two people the bear is going to eat first?

(If someone has Lidda's template, and would post it to this thread, that would be great. )

Well, the stats for the iconics were posted in an earlier book. I can't recall the name of it at the moment. I suspect that Lidda's sympathies would lie with someone seeking a healer. Possibly, she might use a free action to warn both Narrin and Claire of the bear before heading back to her party. Or she might want to call for her companions as well at the same time.