Comments and questions on 3.5 from a Newbie

[Storm Raven]

I think that celestial armor is a bit much for Narrin to own. As for the horse, this is allowable. It might be fair to balance the encounter a bit for Claire, as the horse counts towards Narrin's equipment. Also, it is rather hard to ride horses in the woods, and the distance in the encounter would probably be a bit larger. (The horse should be a bit easier to hear or spot.)

The problem for Claire is that giving them both horses doesn't help her. It offsets his more limited mobility for not much gain for her. Once they are mounted, the best she can realistically hope for is that they will be about the same speed when moving.

 

[kenobi65]

This may well happen, because Lidda chose the Improved Critical Feat.

Technically, Lidda (as a Rogue 11) can't have Improved Critical.

Improved Critical has a prerequisite of BAB +8, which a Rogue 11 does have. However...Lidda's BAB just reached +8 at 11th level, and she doesn't have a feat slot to take at 11th. Because her BAB wasn't at least +8 the last time she got a feat (at 9th level), she can't take Improved Critical until she makes 12th level (at which point, she'll get a feat).

Unless DR 10/magic means that the spell doesn't protect against magical weapons at all, in which case Claire is really dead.

It doesn't protect against magic weapons at all. The "descriptor" after the slash in a DR description indicates what sort of weapon bypasses the DR. So, DR10/magic is bypassed by any magical weapon.

Also, it's worth noting that DR works a little differently in 3.5 versus how it did in 3E. In 3E, "material" DR (such as silver or cold iron) could always be bypassed by magic weapons; any magic weapon was considered "tougher" than the material (so, a +1 weapon would work just fine vs. a creature with DR10/silver). In 3.5, even a +5 weapon can't bypass a material DR.

And, in 3.5, you have some examples of creatures with an "or" DR (e.g., DR10 / silver or magic), which can be bypassed by a weapon with either quality, as well as "and" DRs on the very toughest monsters (e.g., DR10 / silver and good), which can only be bypassed by a weapon with both qualities.

 

[kenobi65]

Well, the stats for the iconics were posted in an earlier book. I can't recall the name of it at the moment.

"Enemies and Allies" had the 3E stats for at least some of the iconic PCs (at a minimum, the "Prefab Four" of Lidda, Regdar, Mialee, and Jozam) at various (though not every) levels.

 

[monboesen]

Me, too. However, I suspect that monboeson's opinion may be colored by one (or both) of two things:
1) A desire to play a PC who is good at skills, and a lack of interest in playing one who isn't (this is what keeps my wife from playing a straight fighter, and is her recurring gripe every time her cleric levels up).
2) A campaign that places a high premium on mobility and skill use.

When it comes to being able to open industrial-sized cans of whup-ass, pretty much nothing beats a straight fighter. Sniffles is correct, said single-classed fighter is pretty much gonna be a one-trick pony, and not to every player's taste, but it doesn't mean it's not an effective PC type.

Partially true. It likely comes down to campaign preferences. In our campaigns most encounters take place in the wilderness or in urban environments and not very often dungeon or caves.

This means that there’s either distance and cover/concealment or restrictions on arms and armour (in urban areas). Those are restrictions that hinder power fighters.

Of course a straight level fighter is good at fighting and certainly playable. But most often he will actually be more dangerous (as in doing more damage/round) with those 4 rogue levels than single classed fighters. They cost him 1 point of BAB, 1 point of Fortitude save (roughly), 8 HP and two feats. They give him +2d6 sneak attack (very nice and easy to use), evasion and a better reflex save, uncanny dodge and a butload of skillpoints.

To me that’s a fantastic deal, I even think that the sneak attack really suits fighters who should be able to take advantage of flanking/flat-footedness.

Most importantly fighters lack good feat options at higher levels. Their linearity IMO leaves them falling behind the other classes, especially the casters. Even the half-casters (rangers, paladins) gets good use of wands and scrolls. Rogues have this option as well with UMD.

I tend not to view classes in D&D as a rigid thing. You don't go to fighter school and learn to be a fighter, nor do you go to some special ranger school and becomes a ranger.

To me classes are packages of abilities. So if my character is a Fighter/Adventurer he is going to have fighter/rogue/ranger levels. Because the combination of them fits my view of what an adventurer should be able to do much better than straight fighter levels.

The same way that the character I described earlier on the thread has barbarian levels, though he is not a barbarian at all but rather of noble birth. He is cursed with terrifying homicidal rages. The barbarian class gives the appropriate abilities; I just use another flavor/fluff to explain them.

So IMO if Narrin is a fighter type who has the job of guarding a forested area I would most likely give him some levels of ranger and some of fighter. That way he gets some skills that I would expect someone guarding forested areas should have and still has good solid combat ability.

 

[kenobi65]

Most importantly fighters lack good feat options at higher levels.

That, I'll grant you, esp. if your campaign is using a limited number of books beyond the Core Rulebooks.

 

[painandgreed]

Of course a straight level fighter is good at fighting and certainly playable. But most often he will actually be more dangerous (as in doing more damage/round) with those 4 rogue levels than single classed fighters. They cost him 1 point of BAB, 1 point of Fortitude save (roughly), 8 HP and two feats. They give him +2d6 sneak attack (very nice and easy to use), evasion and a better reflex save, uncanny dodge and a butload of skillpoints.

Lately I've been having the same thoughts. It seems that either a Fighter 4/Rogue 4 or Fighter 4/Cleric 4 are both better than a Fighter 8 with the loses more than offset by either skills or spells.

 

[sniffles]

That, I'll grant you, esp. if your campaign is using a limited number of books beyond the Core Rulebooks.

I guess I'm lucky my GM allows a few more books. I'm really looking forward to reaching about 15th level, when my fighter/Tempest will be able to move into the Champion of Corellon Larethian prestige class from Races of the Wild - he'll eventually be able to do a two-weapon Spring Attack while wearing heavy armor!!

 

[MichaelH]

(If someone has Lidda's template, and would post it to this thread, that would be great. )

The iconic characters were printed in Enemies and Allies at levels 5, 10, and 15. Here is Lidda at level 10. I know you said level 11, but 10 is close enough considering our other 2 actors are only level 5.

Edit: Updated to level 12.



Lidda CR 12
Female halfling rogue 12
CG Small humanoid
Init +11; Listen +17, Spot +15
Languages Common, halfling, elven, orc
__________________________________________________________
AC 29, touch 20, flat-footed 29, Dodge feat +1 to AC vs. 1 opponent
HP 57 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +16, Will +5; Trap sense +4
__________________________________________________________
Spd 20 ft.
Melee +2 short sword +13/+8 (1d4+3/19-20)
Ranged +1 composite (Str +1) shortbow +18/+13 (1d4+3/x3)
Base Atk +9; Grp +6
Atk Options point blank shot, precise shot
Special Actions Sneak attack +6d6, improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds, 2 potions of invisibility
___________________________________________________________
Abilities Str 12, Dex 24, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 8
SQ Halfling traits, trapfinding
Feats Dodge, Improved Critical (shortbows), Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Skills Balance +10, Climb +18, Disable Device +19, Escape Artist +15, Gather Information +6, Hide +32, Jump +20, Listen +17, Move Silently +32, Open Lock +25, Search +17, Spot +15, Tumble +23, Use Magic Device +5
Possessions Combat gear, +2 studded leather armor, +2 darkwood buckler, amulet of natural armor +1, ring of protection +2, short sword +2, composite (Str +1) shortbow +1, boots of elvenkind, greater bracers of archery, eyes of the eagle, gloves of dexterity +4, Heward’s handy haversack, ioun stone (pale blue), vest of escape, adventuring gear, masterwork thieves’ tools

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Ok (grins evilly, loving a nice bit of utter chaos)

Lidda (who I'm going to have to look up, because I don't have the book she's in ... or I'll have to make her, at 12th level ... ick!) is going to, out of the kindness of her heart, call down softly:
Hey. Both of you. There's a dire bear about to attack you. It's over in those pine trees to the right.

Unfortunately ... neither Claire nor Narrin have a reasonable reaction to this. I don't know why. Perhaps it's the sun. Perhaps it's the fact they've been threatening each other, and are both scared. Perhaps it's because both are inexperienced. Perhaps it's because ... well, it could be anything.

Claire whirls to face Lidda's position (and mistaking Lidda for someone else) : You're the one with that party who injured my friends. Now I will kill you!

And the same time, ignoring what Claire said altogether:

Narrin: I KNEW it was a trap. You set me up! A trap, a trap! Well, you filthy treasure hunters, now you die!

Lidda, for just a moment, is in shock, her mouth hanging open. She recovers an instant later, but she no longer has Surprise (although her two self-declared foes are still flat-footed)

Aroused and angered by all the yelling, the dire bear (I'll have to wing that one too) roars a challenge, which shakes the woodlands. On it's turn, it will charge.
The half-orc ranger (5th level, specialized in two-weapon fighting, a Drizzt wannabe, and an ally of one Forrester ) who was trailing the bear, and who is an ally and friend of Narrin, hears Claire and Narrin shout, the bear's roar, but does not hear Lidda.
When he sees the dire bear charge, he will charge, on his turn. His friend Narrin is in danger from an unknown foe, and from the dire bear.

Claire and Narrin both do Spot checks for Lidda, as Lidda called down to them. Both, by some fluke, roll natural 20s, which is an automatic success. They see her, see precisely where she is, see the crossbow she has aimed at them (which both interpret as an assassination attempt. They do not know Lidda is not a killer by heart. They think, in their sudden adrenal surge, that an Artemis Entreri is upon them. So they REALLY freak out now.)
Both intend to attack Lidda, on their turn.

At the top of the far hillock, Hennet the Sorcerer overhears the uproar down below, and with a bellow this hot-headed sorcerer (11th level) charges downslope to help Lidda. But he is 500 feet away from the combat.
The others at the top of the hill also charge, charging right into a nest of Damaran vipers (deadly poisonous, death in minutes.) The vipers gain surprise, and successfully bite Mialee and Tordek. Tordek starts killing them, after making his save, but Mialee is in real trouble, having rolled a 1 on her save. Jozan the cleric breaks off the charge to help them both.
Jozan shouts to Hennet for help, but Hennet decides to go and save Lidda, who is obviously in real trouble. Hennet shouts back that little Lidda is going to die if he doesn't save her, she's an old and dear friend, and he has to help her.

(Thus, Mialee, Tordek, and Jozan are out of the fight.)

Claire, Narrin, Narrin's friend the ranger, the bear, and of course Lidda herself hear the shouting 500 feet away at the top of the hillock. Lidda realizes her friends are in trouble. Claire realizes all her enemies have arrived. Narrin realizes it was a big trap, a huge setup by this elven female and her friends. Narrin's ranger friend doesn't know who it is, concentrating on protecting Narrin. The bear doesn't care. The closest person is the tastiest meal, in it's opinion.

Initiative is rolled.

Lidda rolls a 27.
The dire bear rolls a 23.
Hennett rolls a 20.
Narrin's half-orc ranger ally rolls an 18.
Claire rolls a 15.
Narrin rolls a 9.

Then all bedlam breaks out.

(If anyone has a 5th level ranger to supply, I could use him or her! )
(I don't have the Monster Manual 3.5. Will just have to wing the dire bear.)
(I am assuming Hennett is 11th level, for the purposes of this combat.)

If anyone wants to contemplate how this mess would turn out, feel free to describe your thoughts!
If it's too much of a mess, don't bother. It's only hypothetical, in any case.

(The point of this combat is to understand the capacity of rangers and sorcerers, character classes I have never played, or really understood. And, to see what Lidda can do, and would do, in this fiasco.)

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Thank you, Michael! Cheers!
She's 12th level, and takes Improved Critical.
She also takes Improved Evasion at 10th level.
She gains skill points, BAB, Saves, and hit points, of course.