Compare oWoD w/ nWoD

[Mercule]

W to the T to the F.

There were several web versions of Jedi for tho oWoD Mage. Apparently, it was popular as an orphan choice. I found this fact... disturbing.

 

[Stone Dog]

They also had an alternate take on vampires, FWIW.

As an honest question without any snark intended or implied, was this an alternate and viable history of the 13 Clans that accounted for generation or was this a completely different variety of supernatural creature that happened to drink blood and hate sunlight? Because the Keujin were quite clearly a completely different species than Canites despite a few similarities. They aren't vampires.

The species known as Kindred have one orthodox creation myth (Caine) and one unorthodox myth (Lilith, but with Caine still prominant). Requiem? A multitude.

 

[Vocenoctum]

As an honest question without any snark intended or implied, was this an alternate and viable history of the 13 Clans that accounted for generation

Actually, from what I recall it was an alternate history of Caine, but encapsulated the kindred as well. Like I said, Generation isn't tied to Caine except by the story.

The species known as Kindred have one orthodox creation myth (Caine) and one unorthodox myth (Lilith, but with Caine still prominant). Requiem? A multitude.

To be clear, once again, I'm not saying that the oWoD setting offered up lots of alternate myths, I'm saying that the Caine Myth wasn't tied to the rules. It was a setting choice and didn't limit the DM to do whatever he wanted. nWoD seems to take the approach of some other WW books, by offering you 30 options, none of which are supported or integral.

If a GM in oWoD didn't want to use the Cainite mythos, it was easily removed.

The vampires in charge of the oWoD pushed the Caine Myth sure, but there was no proof other than the elders saying so.

For myself, like Shadowrun, oWoD's metaplot was good when it helped, but horrible when it got in the way. I'd still prefer that approach to a "hands off" style setting, simply because that's what I like a setting to provide, a story framework. nWoD takes the toolkit approach, which works fine sometimes, but usually just leaves me empty.

 

[Stone Dog]

Actually, from what I recall it was an alternate history of Caine, but encapsulated the kindred as well. Like I said, Generation isn't tied to Caine except by the story.

To my knowlege no other bloodsucker except Cainites has generation, but this is a curiosity now instead of an actual concern.

nWoD seems to take the approach of some other WW books, by offering you 30 options, none of which are supported or integral.

None of them are universal. Many of them are as supported and integral as any given human religion. Werewolf is a little tighter about this. The Father Wolf myth is much more common since the whole spirit world seems to hate you for it.

If a GM in oWoD didn't want to use the Cainite mythos, it was easily removed.

At which point calling it Vampire the Masquerade is arguably innacurate, but I'll not argue that here anymore.

The vampires in charge of the oWoD pushed the Caine Myth sure, but there was no proof other than the elders saying so.

That is a very anarch argument and while I'm pretty sure there is both metaphysical and archaelogical evidence to support Caine I'm not so certain that I would be surprised if it was all an illuminated lie.

nWoD takes the toolkit approach, which works fine sometimes, but usually just leaves me empty.

I don't see it as anymore toolkitish than the oWoD really. You still have to assemble cities and power groups in much the same way. There just isn't a global Camarilla or Sabbat or Garou Nation anymore. Things are much more fractured and splintered and I feel it is more fulfilling. As nostalgic and fond of the oWoD as I am, the nWoD has become more interesting by a vast degree.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Hm. I think I'm only now getting the idea that there's a big (and now, really obvious) Gnostic thing going one, here. That's a bit I can work with. I hate to give up the fun of varied paradigms, but I'm realizing I might still be able to get away with the kind of crazy-ass character concepts I used to come with with for Ascension just be coming at them from a different angle.

Yes, there's a truckload of Gnosticism at play, here. According to the Atlantis myth, the Exarchs - those mages who ascended bodily into the Supernal Realms - remade the world as they saw fit. The Fallen World is as it is because the Exarchs desire it to be so - and magic is drawing down the Supernal World in defiance of their schema.

The other thing to remember is that magic, because it is Supernal, does not have to follow the rules of the Fallen World - which are set by the Exarchs, anyway. You can't have spaceship battles just off Jupiter in Awakening, right, but there's nothing to prevent you from playing a very technomagical character, for instance - just like in Ascension, you're not really using technology, you're using magic. The technological artefacts are just props, magical tools used to make the effect easier.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

One of the things I really like about the new World of Darkness is the focus on local politics. Sure, the covenants/tribes/orders/et cetera exist all around the world, but there's a lot more variety. Instead of rival Camarilla cities which might both be frightened of the Sabbat city in the next state, you have five different covenants which might control a city and then further division between cities controlled by the same covenant.

City of the Damned: New Orleans has a very different Lancea Sanctum to that found in World of Darkness: Chicago. Likewise, each city's respective Circle of the Crone is quite different, as well - informed by local elements, especially in the case of New Orleans. Yet, in each case, it's straightforward that both instances of the Lancea Sanctum have more in common with each other - and belong to the same widespread covenant - than either has with either instance of the Circle of the Crone, and vice-versa.

This means that each city is familiar, yet different. That's important - to me, most of the old World of Darkness's cities were much more similar, and not in a good way.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't see it as anymore toolkitish than the oWoD really. You still have to assemble cities and power groups in much the same way. There just isn't a global Camarilla or Sabbat or Garou Nation anymore. Things are much more fractured and splintered and I feel it is more fulfilling. As nostalgic and fond of the oWoD as I am, the nWoD has become more interesting by a vast degree.

I think he's refering to things like there being multiple competing official versions of what VII is, and the GM has to pick which one (if any) he's going to roll with. In contrast, in The Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, groups got a very defined group of scaaaaaary evil vampires.

 

[Stone Dog]

I think he's refering to things like there being multiple competing official versions of what VII is, and the GM has to pick which one (if any) he's going to roll with. In contrast, in The Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, groups got a very defined group of scaaaaaary evil vampires.

RIGHT! Right I forgot all about VII for a moment. Falls into the whole Gehenna/Apocalypse style of option book. THOSE I see the point completely, yes.

 

[Vocenoctum]

I think he's refering to things like there being multiple competing official versions of what VII is, and the GM has to pick which one (if any) he's going to roll with. In contrast, in The Dirty Secrets of the Black Hand, groups got a very defined group of scaaaaaary evil vampires.

Right, that plus when you have "one truth", it will be presented in more depth than "pick your own truth". There's always the chance you'll hate the One Truth (such as Tzimisce being infested), but it's there for you.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I like the new Mage.

The character choices are MUCH more complex and I didn't read of anyone detailing it much so I'll go into a bit more depth.

First, there are the 5 watchtowers which give your magic a "flavor" and determine your magical strengths and weaknesses. Next you pick from one of 5 paths which also have strengths and weaknesses. What everyone seems to forget about are the Legacies. When a mage gains 3 points of Gnosis they may choose to join a Legacy, which are kind of secret societies. In Mage the Ascension these would have been the Traditions because the Legacy typically will dictate the philosophy of your magic. As you continue to progress each Legacy will grant you Attainments which are basically innate magical abilities that don't run the risk of Paradox just like Vampiric Disciplines don't. As more and more Mage books come out there are more and more Legacies to reflect different philosophies. Oh yeah, the Tremere are a Legacy of Mages who are essentially soul stealing vampire mages. The difference is that they don't lose the ability to perform awakened magic.

SO... don't read too much into the reviews that state that there isn't enough variety in Mage.