D&D 5E Comparing Monk DPR

[Noxrim]

Hello everyone.
I have been playing around with the "Baseline" proposed by Treantmonk in his video. I graphed it then used to to compare to different builds that I was coming up with. I then wanted to use the same program to test how the Monk compares to different builds, given how it was claimed that Monks are the worst class in the game. I just wanted to see it for myself.
There have been posts here before that discusses this [1, 2, 3], but I wanted to share my findings using graphical representation, and compared to other classes.

Without further ado, here are my assumptions:
The Armor Class that I used for the monsters throughout the levels are:
AC 14 at level 1.
AC 15 at level 4.
AC 16 at level 5.
AC 17 at level 8.
AC 18 at level 9.
AC 19 at level 13.
AC 20 at level 17.

Basically, I wanted the base line to have 60% chance of hitting at all levels, and this kind seems like a good average AC at all levels. I am using the same AC for all classes, so this shouldn't give anyone advantage over the others, but let me know if I made a mistake here.
I am also not using any magic items, as those vary per game.

As for our case, I am starting with a party of Fighter, Warlock, Rogue, and Monk, as follows:

Here are my assumptions for the Warlock (baseline):

• Starts at 16 Charisma.
• Takes Agonizing Blast (Invocation) at level 2.
• ASI to increase Charisma at levels 4 and 8.
• Maintaining Hex

Justification for using Hex:
Resources used for using Hex throughout the adventuring day are relatively minor. A spell slot that is recovered during short rest for quite a long duration (especially at higher levels). The reals cost is concentration, as it is possible to lose it during combat, which would need to be reapplied using another one of those short rest spell slots. Having said that, I still that it is easy enough to maintain Hex throughout the day as a baseline while having extra spell slots to use for other spells. This also makes the Monk look better in comparison.

Assumptions for Rogue:

• Starts at 16 Dexterity.
• ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.
• Always has access to Sneak Attack.
• Has two chances of applying it through Two-Weapons Fighting (could also use Hide for advantage).

Assumptions for Fighter:

• Starts at 16 Strength.
• Uses longsword (Sword and Shield).
• Uses Dueling Fighting Style.
• ASI to increase Strength at levels 4 and 6.
• No damaging abilities from subclass (imagine a Cavalier tank that tries to help allies with high AC and health).

Assumptions for Monk:

• Starts at 16 Dexterity.
• ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.
• Uses Dedicated Weapon (Optional Feature) to two-hand a longsword for attacks.
• Not using Flurry of Blows

I believe that Dex is more important than Wis, as you need to hit to even try to stun, so I choose to prioritize it here.

Many argue that the most played levels are 1-10, so here are my findings for that range:

As we can see here, the Rogue is doing very well above baseline due to the gradual increase in Sneak Attack every 2 levels. The Fighter, focusing on being a defensive tank and not worrying about DPR, is doing less than the baseline as expected.
And the Monk, without using any Ki, is above the baseline as all levels. Keep in mind that the Warlock is using Hex throughout the day and the Monk is still keeping up. Not using any Ki also means that they have access to all the Ki defensive options, offensive bursts, stunning, and utilities and subclass abilities whenever needed.

But then, what happens when we go to higher levels:

While the trend continues for other classes, the Monk just kinda plateaus here. It is not even keeping up with the tank fighter in the group. I can't imagine that would feel good to be the Monk at this point.
But... At these levels, if we assume a short rest every 2 encounters, and each encounter lasts around ~5 rounds, it is not too much of a stretch to assume that the Monk can now spend Ki for Flurry of Blows on all attacks. So what happens then:

The Monk still can't keep up with the baseline at this point, but at least manages to not be weaker than the fighter.. Until higher levels at least. This Monk is also spending a significant amount of Ki to deal damage that there isn't much left for other uses of Ki. Keep in mind that the Rogue is still not using any resources and can comfortably do more damage than that of the Warlock. The fighter is focusing on giving disadvantage, reducing damage, keeping high AC and health while still doing more damage at higher levels.

I have been avoiding using feats since many people argue that feats are optional rules. And while that is true, if we entertain the idea that most games take place between 1-10, and so we must focus on these levels, we should also be using feats, since the majority of tables also use these rules right?

So in this scenario we have a new contender, the crossbow expert fighter:

• Starts at 16 Dexterity, and Crossbow Expert (Vuman or Custom Lineage).
• Uses Archery Fighting Style.
• ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.
• Sharpshooter at level 6.
• EDIT: I forgot to mention that this Fighter is using Champion's Improved Critical and Superior Critical for calculations.

Here is what we have:

Once we start adding more optimized builds and using feats, the Monk really falls behind, even when using Flurry of Blows at higher levels. This is okey if you are comparing a build optimized for damage vs a build that is optimized for something else, but the Monk here doesn't even have the option to optimize to be able to compete.

My conclusion:
The Monk does okey at the important levels (1-10) and even does better than the "baseline" of Hex+AB Warlock, but it really struggles at higher levels. It also really falls behind once we start adding feats and more "optimized" builds.
The problem is that Monks cannot be more optimized. They lack good feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master. Tashas does give them the half feats so it is getting better, but I believe that they need more support in terms of access to good feats to compete with other martials.
They also definitely need help at higher levels from the base class shell itself. Spending all resources on damage, they still can't do good damage compared with other classes without using feats.

So overall, my personal opinion:

• Buff base class Monk at levels 11+.
• Give Monks feats to compete and have options and be able to optimize (in different ways).

What are your thoughts?

 

[Mistwell]

You're using the optional feature for Monk but not other classes. For example, two weapon fighting kinda isn't optimal anymore for Rogue (if it ever was) now that they can just get advantage every round through Steady Aim. People keep talking about Steady Aim being just for ranged, but it's not. It works for melee as well, it just increases the chance you will be hit back because you're not cunning action away. And then Treantmonk has an arcane trickster rogue using booming blade or green flame blade every melee attack round, so you're attacking with advantage (familiar, hiding, or steady aim), rapier damage, sneak attack damage, and GFB or BB damage. That adds up to a pretty hefty amount of damage.

As for your concerns about monk damage, I absolutely agree. Though Treantmonk does think one of the new subclasses for Monk in Tasha's does bring that subclass up to a decent DPR.

 

[TwoSix]

You're using the optional feature for Monk but not other classes. For example, two weapon fighting kinda isn't optimal anymore for Rogue (if it ever was) now that they can just get advantage every round through Steady Aim. People keep talking about Steady Aim being just for ranged, but it's not. It works for melee as well, it just increases the chance you will be hit back because you're not cunning action away. And then Treantmonk has an arcane trickster rogue using booming blade or green flame blade every melee attack round, so you're attacking with advantage (familiar, hiding, or steady aim), rapier damage, sneak attack damage, and GFB or BB damage. That adds up to a pretty hefty amount of damage.

As for your concerns about monk damage, I absolutely agree. Though Treantmonk does think one of the new subclasses for Monk in Tasha's does bring that subclass up to a decent DPR.

Yea, the general problem with Monk is that it doesn't have a lot of optimization tricks available to it. A secondary problem is that it doesn't get any real bump at level 11, like most of the other martial classes do.

Monk Kensei archer build using the new Tasha's features is the only build I know that can keep up in Tier 2, and even that is somewhat ki-starved.

 

[Mistwell]

Yea, the general problem with Monk is that it doesn't have a lot of optimization tricks available to it. A secondary problem is that it doesn't get any real bump at level 11, like most of the other martial classes do.

Monk Kensei archer build using the new Tasha's features is the only build I know that can keep up in Tier 2, and even that is somewhat ki-starved.

Way of Mercy can do it.

 

[ninjayeti]

It is a solid number crunching, the problem is you can't put a DPR value on stunning strike. For my money, that's THE signature ability of monks in 5E. Period. When the crossbow expert can fire four "stunning shots" per round, then it will be a fair comparison.

 

[NotAYakk]

Classes that get a subclass feature at level 11 really need (a) to factor that subclass feature in, and (b) that subclass feature has to be solid.

Classes without a subclass feature at 11 tend to have a nice power bump from their core class (in warlock's case, from EB).

---

Both of these often fail. You see subclasses not built with the assumption their level 11 feature has to be very strong. The ranger had a bunch of them.

And even strong level 11 features, like gloomstalker, end up being weaker than rival core class features, like extra attack(3).

---

Here is a proposed monk patch.

Martial Arts: (change)

You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the Attack Rolls of your your unarmed strikes and monk weapons. You can add both your Dexterity and Strength to the damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons.

One with Ki:
Starting at level 11, the first Ki you expend in a round is free, unless that Ki uses a monk class or subclass feature to restore HP damage. In addition, when you use a bonus action to spend Ki, you may take an additional different bonus action on your turn; it may not be the same bonus action twice.

Starting at level 17, when you spend Ki as a bonus action, you may do the bonus action twice. Each use still costs Ki.

Perfect Self: (change)
The first 2 Ki you spend in a round is free. If you miss with an attack or an attack hits you, you can expend 1 Ki to cause that attack to be rerolled; if you don't like the result, you can spend more Ki to make it reroll further.

---

At level 1, the 14 strength/16 dex monk does 1d4+5 damage with punches.

At level 11, they get a free flurry every round, and can spend ki to disengage or dodge if they want to.

At level 17, flurry of blows becomes 4 attacks for 2 Ki (but first Ki is free per round), and you can expend 3 Ki / round (including the free Ki) to make 6 attacks and double dash.

 

[Stalker0]

I did a similar analysis a while back and came to similar conclusions. I think people are seeing the forest for the trees as they say.

The truth is, at the levels people play at (1-11), the monk is fine on DPR, just fine. Now it doesn't have a lot of optimization tricks, which is why optimancers like Treantmonk think so poorly of it. But for regular play, the monk does well.

Its true that the monk has serious DPR problems at 12+, so for the view groups that do play those levels, its worth considering some houserules. but for the majority of groups, they will never see that problem.

 

[S'mon]

Hello everyone.
I have been playing around with the "Baseline" proposed by Treantmonk in his video. I graphed it then used to to compare to different builds that I was coming up with. I then wanted to use the same program to test how the Monk compares to different builds, given how it was claimed that Monks are the worst class in the game. I just wanted to see it for myself.
There have been posts here before that discusses this [1, 2, 3], but I wanted to share my findings using graphical representation, and compared to other classes.

Without further ado, here are my assumptions:
The Armor Class that I used for the monsters throughout the levels are:
AC 14 at level 1.
AC 15 at level 4.
AC 16 at level 5.
AC 17 at level 8.
AC 18 at level 9.
AC 19 at level 13.
AC 20 at level 17.

Basically, I wanted the base line to have 60% chance of hitting at all levels, and this kind seems like a good average AC at all levels. I am using the same AC for all classes, so this shouldn't give anyone advantage over the others, but let me know if I made a mistake here.
I am also not using any magic items, as those vary per game.

As for our case, I am starting with a party of Fighter, Warlock, Rogue, and Monk, as follows:

Here are my assumptions for the Warlock (baseline):

• Starts at 16 Charisma.
• Takes Agonizing Blast (Invocation) at level 2.
• ASI to increase Charisma at levels 4 and 8.
• Maintaining Hex

Assumptions for Rogue:

• Starts at 16 Dexterity.
• ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.
• Always has access to Sneak Attack.
• Has two chances of applying it through Two-Weapons Fighting (could also use Hide for advantage).

Assumptions for Fighter:

• Starts at 16 Strength.
• Uses longsword (Sword and Shield).
• Uses Dueling Fighting Style.
• ASI to increase Strength at levels 4 and 6.
• No damaging abilities from subclass (imagine a Cavalier tank that tries to help allies with high AC and health).

Assumptions for Monk:

• Starts at 16 Dexterity.
• ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.
• Uses Dedicated Weapon (Optional Feature) to two-hand a longsword for attacks.
• Not using Flurry of Blows

Many argue that the most played levels are 1-10, so here are my findings for that range:

As we can see here, the Rogue is doing very well above baseline due to the gradual increase in Sneak Attack every 2 levels. The Fighter, focusing on being a defensive tank and not worrying about DPR, is doing less than the baseline as expected.
And the Monk, without using any Ki, is above the baseline as all levels. Keep in mind that the Warlock is using Hex throughout the day and the Monk is still keeping up. Not using any Ki also means that they have access to all the Ki defensive options, offensive bursts, stunning, and utilities and subclass abilities whenever needed.

But then, what happens when we go to higher levels:

While the trend continues for other classes, the Monk just kinda plateaus here. It is not even keeping up with the tank fighter in the group. I can't imagine that would feel good to be the Monk at this point.
But... At these levels, if we assume a short rest every 2 encounters, and each encounter lasts around ~5 rounds, it is not too much of a stretch to assume that the Monk can now spend Ki for Flurry of Blows on all attacks. So what happens then:

The Monk still can't keep up with the baseline at this point, but at least manages to not be weaker than the fighter.. Until higher levels at least. This Monk is also spending a significant amount of Ki to deal damage that there isn't much left for other uses of Ki. Keep in mind that the Rogue is still not using any resources and can comfortably do more damage than that of the Warlock. The fighter is focusing on giving disadvantage, reducing damage, keeping high AC and health while still doing more damage at higher levels.

I have been avoiding using feats since many people argue that feats are optional rules. And while that is true, if we entertain the idea that most games take place between 1-10, and so we must focus on these levels, we should also be using feats, since the majority of tables also use these rules right?

So in this scenario we have a new contender, the crossbow expert fighter:

• Starts at 16 Dexterity, and Crossbow Expert (Vuman or Custom Lineage).
• Uses Archery Fighting Style.
• ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.
• Sharpshooter at level 6.

Here is what we have:

Once we start adding more optimized builds and using feats, the Monk really falls behind, even when using Flurry of Blows at higher levels. This is okey if you are comparing a build optimized for damage vs a build that is optimized for something else, but the Monk here doesn't even have the option to optimize to be able to compete.

My conclusion:
The Monk does okey at the important levels (1-10) and even does better than the "baseline" of Hex+AB Warlock, but it really struggles at higher levels. It also really falls behind once we start adding feats and more "optimized" builds.
The problem is that Monks cannot be more optimized. They lack good feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master. Tashas does give them the half feats so it is getting better, but I believe that they need more support in terms of access to good feats to compete with other martials.
They also definitely need help at higher levels from the base class shell itself. Spending all resources on damage, they still can't do good damage compared with other classes without using feats.

So overall, my personal opinion:

• Buff base class Monk at levels 11+.
• Give Monks feats to compete and have options and be able to optimize (in different ways).

What are your thoughts?

Level 5+ Monk can Stunning Strike. They aren't a DPR class. They are the best lockdown class. Spending Ki on FoB at 5+ is usually sub-optimal unless you are nova-ing to increase chances of a Stun.

 

[Mort]

Level 5+ Monk can Stunning Strike. They aren't a DPR class. They are the best lockdown class. Spending Ki on FoB at 5+ is usually sub-optimal unless you are nova-ing to increase chances of a Stun.

While this is true, it's extremely resource intensive. Stunning Strike is a CON save, a high save for many monsters - so it often takes A LOT of Ki to lock something down.

I wonder if anyone has done a decent analysis on stun chance among a wide range of monsters?

 

[Dausuul]

What are your thoughts?

My thoughts: If one's math does not account for Stunning Strike, building analysis on top of that math is building a castle in a swamp. It's the monk's signature ability. Ignoring it is like doing analysis on a warlock and ignoring Agonizing Blast.

It's weird that Treantmonk of all people makes this mistake. Back in 3E, he was the guy who popularized the insight that a wizard's most effective spells are not blasting but debuff and control. Apparently he's forgotten his own lessons.