Comparison: Strongholds & Dynasties - Empire - Magical Medieval Society - Birthright

[Assenpfeffer]

The book has a sidebar talking about how to adjust the maintenance costs, which are tied to the number of hexes in the realm. 7 hexes is where the maintenance costs begin to mount up higher, marking the point of "large". You can change the table to make maintenance of realms with more hexes less expensive, and thus make larger realms "normal" for your world. The sidebar covers it pretty well.

In that case, how much attention is going to be required for each 12-mile hex/province? If a small kingdom (in my setting) takes up 20-30 hexes, does the amount of work involved in upkeep (especially given that FoB seems to use both weekly turns and quarterly "superturns") going to be incredibly cumbersome?

I am in the same boat; most of the 250 areas I consider single provinces would have between 8 and 15 hexes in them at 12 miles across the hex. Sub-infeudation lets me fix this for small realms, but I am not interested in re-writing all 250 just to make sure the numbers stay in balance.

The main area I'm looking at using FoB for is an elongated peninsula about 2900 miles long and averaging around 800 miles wide. This is roughly the same area as continental Europe as far east as the Russian border, near as I can tell. Just doing the simple math, that's going to give me a rather staggering 18,000+ hexes.

After fooling around with my map-in-progress, it looks like 84-mile hexes would work okay. 36-mile hexes still seem too small, but might be made to work.

Well, the production numbers may not need to be changed at all. Since they are already abstract numbers that do not tie back to "X gp" or "X tons of iron", you could just keep them the same ... except...

The troop movements are tied to the production numbers and to the 12-mile size. Adjusting the 12-mile size up to 72, as you mention, makes your troops move 6x as fast. You pay resource points to move troops, so making the hexes bigger means you can move the troops 6x as far for the same cost.

Remember that bringing the cross-hex distance up to 72 miles across makes the area about 34.75 x the area of the 12-mile hexes. That needs to be the factor for any attempt to scale the resources.

You can cut the speed of the troops by dividing their movement points by the same amount you multiplied the distance. That has a funny effect, as their movement points are 7x their base movement (7x daily movement to represent 1 week), so in the sample case you presented, movement points would be 7/6 (1.1666667) x D&D movement in 5' squares. You might as well just say they can move as many hexes as squares at that point, and round off.

The resource points may take care of itself, at that point. If you don't try to scale them, then the 6x as far for the same cost makes sense.

84-mile hexes would put that movement ratio right on the money. And thinking about it, 12-mile hexes nestle nicely in an 84-mile hex. Hmmm...

If we do this, though, wouldn't it mean that the proportion of a nation's total resourses needed to move a unit across it would be 6x as much, making troop movement costs inflate to an uncomfortably large proportion of the total budget?

Aaargh - this is shrivelling my brain.

The rules for units finding each other when they wind up in the same hex will likely need some attention, then. Armies are much more likely to be able to avoid each other in 3600 square miles of area than they are in 125 square miles of area.

That, at least, seems fixable, given my (admmittedly tenuous) understanding of how the rules work.

Also, does FoB (or AEG's Empire, for that matter,) address the issue of naval movement and/or combat?

 

[jgbrowning]

I don't have FoB, so this may be a niave question. Why use hexes as opposed to just square miles for a maintenance system? I'm assuming there's a tactical tie-in with the combat system, but would someone with the book let me know?

joe b.

 

[Silveras]

In that case, how much attention is going to be required for each 12-mile hex/province? If a small kingdom (in my setting) takes up 20-30 hexes, does the amount of work involved in upkeep (especially given that FoB seems to use both weekly turns and quarterly "superturns") going to be incredibly cumbersome?

Well, yes, that is the core of the problem. Since each 12-mile hex can have a population center, produce resource points, and have various improvements added, each such hex needs to be tracked separately and have its production and upkeep costs recorded separately. Upkeep and Production are only at issue on a seasonal (quarterly) basis; the lesser weekly turns are there for moving armies.

The main area I'm looking at using FoB for is an elongated peninsula about 2900 miles long and averaging around 800 miles wide. This is roughly the same area as continental Europe as far east as the Russian border, near as I can tell. Just doing the simple math, that's going to give me a rather staggering 18,000+ hexes.

After fooling around with my map-in-progress, it looks like 84-mile hexes would work okay. 36-mile hexes still seem too small, but might be made to work.

84-mile hexes would put that movement ratio right on the money. And thinking about it, 12-mile hexes nestle nicely in an 84-mile hex. Hmmm...

If we do this, though, wouldn't it mean that the proportion of a nation's total resourses needed to move a unit across it would be 6x as much, making troop movement costs inflate to an uncomfortably large proportion of the total budget?

No, I don't think so. If you don't try to fiddle with the numbers, it just means that the abstract representations are of bigger things -- wagonloads of grain instead of sacks of grain, if you see what I mean. That is what I meant by the resources taking care of themselves.

That, at least, seems fixable, given my (admmittedly tenuous) understanding of how the rules work.

I think that stretches my suspension of disbelief a little too far. The rules for switching to Daily Movement to avoid running into another army presume that your movement points are sufficient that you can move on a daily basis, just not as far; with the scale you are talking about, that seems like it would be one of the casualties.

Really, I think 84 miles is waaaay too big. It is large enough to reduce the count of hexes to a manageable level, but it is too big for the level of detail the rest of the system presupposes.

Standard mapping has been on the order of 24 or 30, sometimes 36, miles across a hex. FoB goes a bit small at 12, but 72 and 84 are much more suited to modern eras where planes and motorized vehicles can really cross vast amounts of land at a stretch.

I say this from experience, by the way. The early draft of my world had an area the size of Asia inhabited by the population of Rhode Island. It was ... sparse. I cut the map size down a lot, and raised the population levels a bit, for something that I feel works. Even at about 600x1200 miles (the current size), I have more than enough area for several campaigns to run in at once.

Also, does FoB (or AEG's Empire, for that matter,) address the issue of naval movement and/or combat?

FoB does not address naval combat, but it does address moving troops by ship.
Empire does not address either.

And for good measure:
Strongholds & Dynasties leaves most of that to the forthcoming book (on the schedule for Feb. 2004), a revision of Mongoose's Ships of Blood.
Birthright addresses both.
MMS:WE does not include either.
I don't think I recall seeing anything in Cry Havoc, either.

 

[Silveras]

I don't have FoB, so this may be a niave question. Why use hexes as opposed to just square miles for a maintenance system? I'm assuming there's a tactical tie-in with the combat system, but would someone with the book let me know?

joe b.

Well, the only people who can really answer that are the designers; but since I never know when to keep my opinions to myself, I can take a stab at it .

Yes, there is a tactical tie-in to the size. As posted on the Fields of Blood thread, the intention was for 1 hex to be about 1 day's movement. Per the Players' Handbook, that would be 24 miles across. I'm not sure where the decision to go to 12 came from.

The other reason for using hexes instead of raw distances is, I think, to discourage unbelievable overcrowding of cities. The way the book is written now, each population center has a ring of hexes around it which are likely to be occupied by a village or smaller. I think that helps many of us who don't have a firm idea of how close is too close for cities to be located.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

The other reason for using hexes instead of raw distances is, I think, to discourage unbelievable overcrowding of cities. The way the book is written now, each population center has a ring of hexes around it which are likely to be occupied by a village or smaller. I think that helps many of us who don't have a firm idea of how close is too close for cities to be located.

Of course, you can still have megalopoli in which you've got several metropoli sitting really close to each other; since there's no real discussion of food, just resources, that can work fairly easily. It'll be a pain in the rear and you'll have a lot of numbers to crunch, but hey...

Brad

 

[Silveras]

Of course, you can still have megalopoli in which you've got several metropoli sitting really close to each other; since there's no real discussion of food, just resources, that can work fairly easily. It'll be a pain in the rear and you'll have a lot of numbers to crunch, but hey...

Brad

I think I'd rather just create a new category of city size and work with that. Clustering to get around a mechanical limitation strikes me as a bit of rules-lawyering. If I *need* to have a city much bigger than a DMG metropolis, then I will define a new category and place it accordingly. Such should be sufficiently rare that this just about has to be an easier approach.

 

[johnsemlak]

nce.



FoB does not address naval combat, but it does address moving troops by ship.
Empire does not address either.

And for good measure:
Strongholds & Dynasties leaves most of that to the forthcoming book (on the schedule for Feb. 2004), a revision of Mongoose's Ships of Blood.
Birthright addresses both.
MMS:WE does not include either.
I don't think I recall seeing anything in Cry Havoc, either.

A further note navel combat--

Rules supplementing the War Machine were included in Gazetteer 4: Ierendi for the old D&D system.

 

[Silveras]

A further note navel combat--

Rules supplementing the War Machine were included in Gazetteer 4: Ierendi for the old D&D system.

Thanks... I had overlooked that one.

 

[Assenpfeffer]

No, I don't think so. If you don't try to fiddle with the numbers, it just means that the abstract representations are of bigger things -- wagonloads of grain instead of sacks of grain, if you see what I mean. That is what I meant by the resources taking care of themselves.

It occurred to me after posting that my question made no sense at all. What I get for posting late into the night while fueled on caffiene.

I think that stretches my suspension of disbelief a little too far. The rules for switching to Daily Movement to avoid running into another army presume that your movement points are sufficient that you can move on a daily basis, just not as far; with the scale you are talking about, that seems like it would be one of the casualties.

Really, I think 84 miles is waaaay too big. It is large enough to reduce the count of hexes to a manageable level, but it is too big for the level of detail the rest of the system presupposes.

Standard mapping has been on the order of 24 or 30, sometimes 36, miles across a hex. FoB goes a bit small at 12, but 72 and 84 are much more suited to modern eras where planes and motorized vehicles can really cross vast amounts of land at a stretch.

Hmmm... maybe I ned to rethink some scaling. Realistically, a much smaller area than the one I'm currently working with would be plenty of room.

FoB does not address naval combat, but it does address moving troops by ship.

Is ship movement handled via hexes or "sea zones," or someting like that?

 

[Silveras]

Is ship movement handled via hexes or "sea zones," or someting like that?

Hexes, the speed is based on the amount of resources the race can pull out of a water hex. The better your race is at dealing with water, the faster your ships can go is the basic theory.

It is handled mostly as a small subsection under movement in general, and a lot is glossed over. For example, it is assumed that ports have sufficient ships to carry the troops, so no attempt is made to define how many ships that is. Also, such movement is only allowed between Ports.