Comparison: Strongholds & Dynasties - Empire - Magical Medieval Society - Birthright

Silveras

First Post
My copy of Strongholds and Dynasties arrived yesterday, and I have been devouring it since. Following will be posts on the relative merits of the books I have, for comparison purposes.

For the benfit of anyone not familiar with letter grades...
A = Excellent, well above average
B = Above average, exceeded expectations
C = Average, as expected
D = Below average, did not meet expectations
F = Failure
N/A = Not applicable
 

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Silveras

First Post
Strongholds & Dynasties

Book of Strongholds & Dynasties (Mongoose Publishing)

Overall Impression: Very Good to Excellent

Content:
Construction system: A
Domain management system (small scale) : D
Domain management system (medium scale): A
Domain management system (large scale) : F
City/Urban Center details: F
Trade system: B
Internal Realm Politics system: B+
Inter-Realm Politics system: D
Resource Management system: C [Edit: downgraded from A]
Mass Combat system: B
Troop raising: A
Dynastic heritage system: N/A
D&D/Fantasy content: A
Arcane Magic Integration: D
Divine Magic Integration: B

The construction system is quite good. Modular enough to be useful for a-la-carte building, with some simple "one piece" buildings for common uses. Often overlooked elements like underground construction and using non-human or spell-based labor are addressed. Fantasy elememnts, such as elaborate mechanical and magical functions, are addressed as well.

The Domain management system does not scale well, I think. The DM is supposed to keep many details secret from the players, and this can rapidly become unmanageable if the number of provinces grows. Attempting to manage more than 1 or 2 NPC rival realms will quickly become impossible without extensive electronic aids. The provided sample record sheets are also insufficient for some of this; they reflect the end state, but do not have workspaces for the DM to record updates in progress.

The book goes into no detail on cities at all, other than the usefulness of some specific buildings as part of other functions, and even that is not as complete as it could be.

The trade system is more elaborate than most others, and tries to address the various risks that affect moving goods from place to place. This may get upgraded once it is seen in use.

Internal politics is represented to a degree, but more on a province-by-province basis (individual strength/influence of interest groups in each province, but no overall realm-wide presence is refleced).

Politics with other realms is lightly touched on. Much is left to the DM's discretion.

Resource Management is extensive. The variety of resources covered is excellent, and the thoroughness of how to improve/use them is good. [Edit: In my testing, the system breaks down badly once the population center becomes larger than a Large Town. I have downgraded the rating to reflect this.]

The Mass Combat system is surprisingly small. It may prove to be just very efficient use of space, but it is surprisingly short given how much the Open Mass Combat System 2 was heralded.

The resource management pieces also addresses equipping your troops, and does so nicely. Good coverage is given for raising units of various classes, levels, and unit sizes.

Dynastic heritage: For a book called "Strongholds & Dynasties", there is a surprising lack of information about passing power to successors. In that sense, half the book is missing.

The book does a good job of including the D&D races and classes into its rules. Tree-fort construction is hit upon in the construction system, as are non-human workers. Most "ministerial positions" have suggested pre-requisites in terms of skills and/or class levels, allowing most classes and races to be guided to the appropriate role.

One element I do feel is lacking is the large-scale magic integration. Birthright's realm spells is an area that no product has tackled with as much success. S&D does better with Divine magic than with Arcane, but not to the scale of representing abilities like realm spells.
 
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Silveras

First Post
A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe

A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe (Expeditious Retreat Press)
Content:
Construction system: B
Domain management system (small scale) : A+
Domain management system (medium scale): C
Domain management system (large scale) : D
City/Urban Center details: A
Trade system: N/A
Internal Realm Politics system: A
Inter-Realm Politics system: C
Resource Management system: A-
Mass Combat system: N/A
Troop raising: C
Dynastic heritage system: N/A
D&D/Fantasy content: D
Arcane Magic Integration: D
Divine Magic Integration: C

Short 'n Sweet: AMMS:WE is an excellent resource for understanding how earth's medieval period would appear with D&D rules and magic available. However, that same tight focus that gives it such great flavor also works against it when applying it to a broader range of races.
 

Silveras

First Post
Empire

Empire (Alderac Entertainment Group)
Content:
Construction system: C
Domain management system (small scale) : B
Domain management system (medium scale): B
Domain management system (large scale) : B
City/Urban Center details: D
Trade system: C
Internal Realm Politics system: C
Inter-Realm Politics system: C
Resource Management system: C
Mass Combat system: B+
Troop raising: B
Dynastic heritage system: N/A
D&D/Fantasy Conent: A
Arcane Magic Integration: C
Divine Magic Integration: C

Short 'n Sweet: Empire suffers from trying to fit too much material into too little space. It very much feels like significant pieces of systems were cut to make it fit, with the end result that it feels like it needs a "volume II" to make it whole.
 

Silveras

First Post
Birthright (AD&D 2nd Edition)

Birthright (TSR/Wizards of the Coast) (2nd Ed. AD&D rules version)
Content:
Domain management system (small scale) : F
Domain management system (medium scale): A+
Domain management system (large scale) : A+
City/Urban Center details: N/A
Trade system: C
Internal Realm Politics system: B+
Inter-Realm Politics system: A+
Resource Management system: N/A
Construction system: C
Mass Combat system: D-/F
Troop raising: C
Dynastic heritage system: A+
D&D/Fantasy Content: A+
Arcane Magic Integration: A+
Divine Magic Integration: A+

Short 'n Sweet: Even though it is not D20, Birthright did a very good job of setting a usable standard for an area near and dear to the hearts of many players: Rulership. While some D20 books may be better in some areas, as an overall package, Birthright still comes out on top.
 

jasamcarl

First Post
I like.. is 'Fields of Blood' on your wishlist? I.E. can I expect a similiar round-up for that?

Which on the non-Birthright products would you most eagerly endorse of those already listed?
 

Silveras

First Post
jasamcarl said:
I like.. is 'Fields of Blood' on your wishlist? I.E. can I expect a similiar round-up for that?

Which on the non-Birthright products would you most eagerly endorse of those already listed?

That's a tougher call than you think.
Answer: Depending on what style you want to play, any of them would be the "best" in my recommendation.

If you want a Birthright realm-vs-realm level of gaming, Empire (for all that it needs some work to fill in the gaps) seems like the best bet.

If your style goes more toward PCs'-as-regents-struggling-with-power, S&D covers a lot of that ground.

If you are seeking more for adventurers-turned-minor-landholders in a pseudo-medieval setting, AMMS:WE is better.

Now, if you plan to have large battles, AMMS:WE is not going to help you with that. But, if you are going to make War a centerpiece of your campaign, you will probably want Cry Havoc anyway -- because it addresses War in toto, not just the mechanics of combat or the mustering of troops.

So, as I said, I can't make a solid recommendation blindly. You have to decide which book(s) cover(s) the material you need. You may find a use for all of them, or in a hybrid system that combines pieces of each.
 

Blastin

First Post
I was just wondering what your definition of "scale" is as in what you said here:

Domain management system (small scale) : F
Domain management system (medium scale): A+
Domain management system (large scale) : A+

What do you call small vs medium vs large? Just curious, and why you thought Birthright is an F in small scale.
I'm a Birthright fanatic, and have been thinking about looking at the systems you reviewed, so thanks much for the info, and the comparison to Birthright.
Blastin
 

DanMcS

Explorer
Blastin said:
I was just wondering what your definition of "scale" is as in what you said here:

Domain management system (small scale) : F
Domain management system (medium scale): A+
Domain management system (large scale) : A+

What do you call small vs medium vs large? Just curious, and why you thought Birthright is an F in small scale.
I'm a Birthright fanatic, and have been thinking about looking at the systems you reviewed, so thanks much for the info, and the comparison to Birthright.

For small-scale, think a single manor, hamlet, village, or business. Chief priest of a single temple. Birthright doesn't go below the province level, and at that level you don't get much granularity: what would a knightship and a title like Warden of the Forest be in BR? A single law holding level? So would being sherrif of a part of a county, or political boss of a group of citizens in a city. You can't really hire a group of 15 or 20 guardsmen for a city on the Birthright scale.

You can mod the system to do it reasonably well, I've done it myself, but then you lose the top end of the system. A game which handles both a village major and a king of a major empire would need to be really versatile, and birthright doesn't flex quite that far.
 

Blastin

First Post
Ahh...ok.I see now...and agree. Birthright definatly lets the small level of domain detail up in the air. A law holding could be many things, a group of thugs, a sheriff, a small band of rangers, ect...the system doesn't really care about the detail at that level. And I guess that's why he gave it an "F".
Thanks
 

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