Comparison: Strongholds & Dynasties - Empire - Magical Medieval Society - Birthright

[trancejeremy]

Hmmm, thanks.

I'm looking for something like Birthright, but also with an emphasis on individual cities/towns/castles.

I'm very leery of buying Empire from AEG, as I've gotten burned on their one word books in the past, and have sworn off them.

 

[Silveras]

Ahh...ok.I see now...and agree. Birthright definatly lets the small level of domain detail up in the air. A law holding could be many things, a group of thugs, a sheriff, a small band of rangers, ect...the system doesn't really care about the detail at that level. And I guess that's why he gave it an "F".
Thanks

Yes, DanMcS summed it up nicely. Giving BR 'N/A' for that level would also be somewhat accurate, but does not convey as clearly that the system breaks if you try to bend it that far.

 

[Silveras]

Hmmm, thanks.

I'm looking for something like Birthright, but also with an emphasis on individual cities/towns/castles.

I'm very leery of buying Empire from AEG, as I've gotten burned on their one word books in the past, and have sworn off them.

Empire fits that role rather well, depending on how much detail you want to have for your cities.

If you want more focus on how "City 1" fits into the production scheme of the Kingdom, Empire is right there. In that sense, it is like playing the Sid Meier's Civilization series of games; cities can have specific enhancements built in each one that have effects on how that city produces goods, etc. You may want to check a couple of the older threads on the topic for more specific comments.

If you want something on mapping the streets of the city and deciding the politics of factions within a city, No, that's more along the lines of AMMS:WE's chapters on cities.

 

[Falanor]

Like the review, though I'm still going to end up getting all three myself...

I heard that S&D isn't supposed to cover Magic very well because its leaving that to the Encyclopaedia Arcane: Sovereign Magic book to fully work out. So I don't know if that should be a grade for this book really... Though I'd like to see what you have to say for Fields of Blood when it finally gets printed.

 

[Silveras]

I heard that S&D isn't supposed to cover Magic very well because its leaving that to the Encyclopaedia Arcane: Sovereign Magic book to fully work out. So I don't know if that should be a grade for this book really...

The author, Cavalorn, said that in another thread. I can certainly see that presenting such as a system would take a large chunk of space, possibly more than could be presented in this volume without cutting out other parts (and leading them to feel incomplete, as I faulted Empire for doing).

I should qualify this comment by mentioning that Arcane magic gets a good showing in the construction system, but I included that as part of the rating for "D&D/Fantasy content".

[Edit: I did not want to be trying to say this half-asleep in the wee hours...]

Leaving the powerful, realm-affecting spells to a separate book is not why I feel that Arcane and Divine magic could be better integrated in the government system. Divine fares a little better, but not too much better.

Arcane magic does get some use in the construction system, but I factored that into the "A" grade I gave S&D there.

It is difficult to give arcane casters a role without tying it to the range and power of their spells. The special ability of the Minister of Magic (being able to extend the range over which the other ministers can communicate) is a good example; it is, off the top of my head, the only special ability with so many constraints on its use. It is also among the only special abilities where the individual minister character's level (and thus, access to spells) is a determining factor in its effects. The abilities of all other ministers are based upon the actions of a staff of underlings.

Given that there are 15 ministerial positions with at least one special ability each, and 63 actions in 7 focus areas, it seems a let-down to me that the best role the Minister of Magic could fill was 'messenger service'. Communications are important, but having a staff (like all the other ministers) should allow this ability to operate with less constraints than it is presented as having.

The High Priest, on the other hand, can at least hold public ceremonies at which s/he can bestow a sacred (or profane) bonus on various checks to a larger-than-normal number of people. Likewise, s/he can boost the effectiveness of a spell s/he is going to cast by getting part of the populace to pray in support of it.

As for Sovereign Magic, it is just hitting the shelves now. I am curious to see it, but the advertising material paints it as dealing ONLY with Arcane magic. That is still an incomplete picture, as there is as much need for large-area Divine spellcasting as there is for Arcane, and a properly defined kingdom will avail itself of both.

 

[Shadowdancer]

Though I'd like to see what you have to say for Fields of Blood when it finally gets printed.

Fields of Blood is printed, and available in stores.

 

[Silveras]

A few odds 'n' ends on S&D

Here are a few odds & ends type of comments on S&D:

Artwork: Good, and generally reflective of the subject at hand. The drawings of the buildings and their modular components are good, and can serve as models for creating a tile-based mapper or other electronic aid geared toward helping the aspiring builder.

New Prestige Classes: There are none (good news for those who think there are too many).

New Spells: Ditto

New Magic Items: Uh, ditto.

Which means that all of the space in the book is spent on providing rules systems in the relevant areas. There are very few (too few, IMHO) tables. Of the tables that are present, I don't think any of them repeat information in the text; it is all new information that lends itself to tabular presentation.

That being said, a checklist of "monthly update steps" or the like would have been helpful. Some of the details are scattered, and it will be easy for people to miss steps like "loss of stored food to vermin or spoilage" or "subtract what the people eat before counting the produced food for taxes".

Also, a number of places leave "details to the DM's discretion". That is less useful for a newbie than for an experienced DM. Fledgling DMs would probably appreciate a little more guidance than they will find here.

 

[jasamcarl]

Here are a few odds & ends type of comments on S&D:

Artwork: Good, and generally reflective of the subject at hand. The drawings of the buildings and their modular components are good, and can serve as models for creating a tile-based mapper or other electronic aid geared toward helping the aspiring builder.

New Prestige Classes: There are none (good news for those who think there are too many).

New Spells: Ditto

New Magic Items: Uh, ditto.

Which means that all of the space in the book is spent on providing rules systems in the relevant areas. There are very few (too few, IMHO) tables. Of the tables that are present, I don't think any of them repeat information in the text; it is all new information that lends itself to tabular presentation.

That being said, a checklist of "monthly update steps" or the like would have been helpful. Some of the details are scattered, and it will be easy for people to miss steps like "loss of stored food to vermin or spoilage" or "subtract what the people eat before counting the produced food for taxes".

Also, a number of places leave "details to the DM's discretion". That is less useful for a newbie than for an experienced DM. Fledgling DMs would probably appreciate a little more guidance than they will find here.

How does the book deal with invasion and conquest? Are provincial rebellions possible?

 

[Silveras]

How does the book deal with invasion and conquest? Are provincial rebellions possible?

The former are treated nebulously. You can allow your troops to pillage once they are in enemy territory, for example, but there is no 'Declare War' action (although there are a host of others, including 'Declare a Trade Embargo', 'Threaten', and 'Propose an Alliance'). The book is focused, it seems to me, on how the characters influence the resolution of actions -- the special abilities of the Court members / Cabinet Ministers often provide bonuses to the dice rolls used in resolving actions (including combat). As such, the government is a collection of individuals, and the rules are structured to allow the group members to contribute individually.

There is no strategic overview to battle. I want to be clear what I mean: Strategy is knowing which battles have to be won and which you can afford to lose. Tactics is the art of winning a battle. A good tactical leader is not necessarily a good strategic leader, and vise-versa.

The Open Combat system is focused on the staging of "this battle", not on the relative value of "this battle" to the overall course of the war. Birthright had good, solid mechanics for wresting control of a province from one regent and handing it off to another. Strongholds & Dynasties leaves that in the area of "DM's discretion".

This is why I mentioned Cry Havoc above; if war (as opposed to the occasional battle) is to be a major part of your campaign, you will likely find Cry Havoc more suited to your needs.

As for insurrection: Popular rebellion and how to squash it is mentioned, but mostly as a nuisance and not as a major theme. Governments have Control and Corruption ratings (the base value for Control is not explained clearly enough for my taste, by the way; this is another area where a summary table would be highly useful). Your regime's overall popularity with various social classes and factions affects your Control in that, if you fail a check, you can lose a lot of control if a lot of people are unhappy with you. If the Control rating slips by too much, 1 settlement becomes unruly. You can send troops to quell this unrest (no rules for moving troops around from province to province, only rules for moving them on the battlefield). Long-term, you can avoid this by keeping the people happy with your government, although that is an expensive proposition. Other governments can try to provoke insurrection in your lands, as well. Most of the details are, again, left to DM's discretion.

 

[jasamcarl]

The former are treated nebulously. You can allow your troops to pillage once they are in enemy territory, for example, but there is no 'Declare War' action (although there are a host of others, including 'Declare a Trade Embargo', 'Threaten', and 'Propose an Alliance'). The book is focused, it seems to me, on how the characters influence the resolution of actions -- the special abilities of the Court members / Cabinet Ministers often provide bonuses to the dice rolls used in resolving actions (including combat). As such, the government is a collection of individuals, and the rules are structured to allow the group members to contribute individually.

There is no strategic overview to battle. I want to be clear what I mean: Strategy is knowing which battles have to be won and which you can afford to lose. Tactics is the art of winning a battle. A good tactical leader is not necessarily a good strategic leader, and vise-versa.

The Open Combat system is focused on the staging of "this battle", not on the relative value of "this battle" to the overall course of the war. Birthright had good, solid mechanics for wresting control of a province from one regent and handing it off to another. Strongholds & Dynasties leaves that in the area of "DM's discretion".

This is why I mentioned Cry Havoc above; if war (as opposed to the occasional battle) is to be a major part of your campaign, you will likely find Cry Havoc more suited to your needs.

As for insurrection: Popular rebellion and how to squash it is mentioned, but mostly as a nuisance and not as a major theme. Governments have Control and Corruption ratings (the base value for Control is not explained clearly enough for my taste, by the way; this is another area where a summary table would be highly useful). Your regime's overall popularity with various social classes and factions affects your Control in that, if you fail a check, you can lose a lot of control if a lot of people are unhappy with you. If the Control rating slips by too much, 1 settlement becomes unruly. You can send troops to quell this unrest (no rules for moving troops around from province to province, only rules for moving them on the battlefield). Long-term, you can avoid this by keeping the people happy with your government, although that is an expensive proposition. Other governments can try to provoke insurrection in your lands, as well. Most of the details are, again, left to DM's discretion.

Thanks..that was informitive. I think I'm leaning towards Fields of Blood at this point, because, given the hints in the preview pdfs, it looks like it atleast trys to make a comprehensive kingdom management system where these others don't. Rules for running NPC nations is especially appreciated.