D&D General Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes

[Tony Vargas]

There's some key problems to be solved going forward.

• Martial practices cost healing surges in 4E - that made sense for some of them - for others it made no sense.
• sometimes, by overly defining things you end up taking things away from skills - now you can't do something unless you havethe appropriate pracice..

• The surge cost in 4e was presumably to balance with rituals, since they could have a high cost in components or residuum while practices didn't, and wealth/level was a limiting resource, but, in 5e, rituals are free or cheap to cast, and there's no wealth/level to balance against, anyway.
• Skills can hypothetically do a lot "virtually impossible," indeed but not practically so. Thus practices could take things that'd be out of bounds for skills or impractically difficult, and make them possible or practical to attempt without actually taking away from the skill - which'd still be involved, obviously

 

[Don Durito]

• The surge cost in 4e was presumably to balance with rituals, since they could have a high cost in components or residuum while practices didn't, and wealth/level was a limiting resource, but, in 5e, rituals are free or cheap to cast, and there's no wealth/level to balance against, anyway.
• Skills can hypothetically do a lot "virtually impossible," indeed but not practically so. Thus practices could take things that'd be out of bounds for skills or impractically difficult, and make them possible or practical to attempt without actually taking away from the skill - which'd still be involved, obviously

Yes but some of the spells that crossover with things that skills can do are not rituals. (Such as spider climb).

In certain cases (such as the Feat of Strength example above) some kind of limitation is probably necessary. If the exhaustion mechanic was better designed and not quite so punishing off the bat it might be a good thing to use in place of healing surges.

And of course - you want to make sure Martial Practices don't cover things that are not already done by skills. But that can be be difficult to achieve in practice - especially as what skills can do is not actually defined anywhere.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yes but some of the spells that crossover with things that skills can do are not rituals. (Such as spider climb).

They take a slot?

What might correspond to a slot?

CS die?
Action Surge?
HD?

I could see blowing an Action Surge to parkour about for a bit.

 

[Don Durito]

As I said - I think the best bet would be the exhaustion mechanic - but it would need to be rewritten to be less punishing.

As it is - as soon as players get exhaustion - they, understandably, want to take a long rest.

 

[Garthanos]

Well no. Hence the future tense.

I was being pithy. But it's the basic approach that's necessary. A lot of good ideas in 4E came too late and then were orphaned. (Skill powers being another example).

There's some key problems to be solved going forward.

• Martial practices cost healing surges in 4E - that made sense for some of them - for others it made no sense.

Tying skill checks and DCs to that cost helps a lot... additionally allowing some of them to have the cost when its appropriate and less when its not ... it was numerically appropriate to effectively reduce the cost of using them over all based on DMG 2 guidelines I mentioned it has dramatic impact. Additionally keeping those skill checks involved improves there connection to skill ratings.

• sometimes, by overly defining things you end up taking things away from skills - now you can't do something unless you havethe appropriate pracice.

My write ups are planned to include WITHOUT THE PRACTICE guidelines to show one can accomplish masses of this without ... and also improvising rituals is possible too...

But that works because we have the cost/price available... and a paradigm of anyone being able to do the extraordinary at a price. Extreme Heroic exertion like spending a healing surge.

Those DMG2 guidelines kind of hit home for me.

Agreed about skill powers too... wonderful functionality.

 

[Garthanos]

As I said - I think the best bet would be the exhaustion mechanic - but it would need to be rewritten to be less punishing.

As it is - as soon as players get exhaustion - they, understandably, want to take a long rest.

I guess that was done so badly in the past ... and I don't think I have seen it much in the few 5e games I have watched/participated in.

 

[Garthanos]

• , and there's no wealth/level to balance against, anyway.

A lack I find annoying from so many perspectives...

 

[Garthanos]

Maybe even a fighting style that lets you do Special Actions more conveniently?

Hey, what about explicitly allowing anyone (but it’d mostly be worth it for Fighters and rogues) do all the things covered in the Battlemaster Fighter subclass, but without the Battlemaster benefits?

The game already lets non-fighters train maneuvers via a feat so we are part of the way there.
Someone asked a question a little while ago about how one might allow other skills to affect combat... And it kicked off a thought i was already developing. The Fighters maneuvers represent things skills might be used for, for instance intimidation could induce any of a number of effects but specifically many of the maneuver results from the fighter kind of pop to mind (like pushing them back or making them bobble their weapon). The end result is an idea that those trained in a maneuver and a skill which might be used to implement that effect can choose to do so by spending an attack action (if they are trained in the maneuver they have superiority dice and the subsequent action gets a bonus based on (perhaps always a d6) and the attribute associated with the skill). If they are not trained in the maneuver or not trained in the skill it takes a skill check and you might still get the attribute bonus. If untrained in either well find a different appropriate skill .

Religion or Diplomacy might enable a Rally for instance.

One of the benefits of this every extra attack benefits the fighter and they are not doing a weak attack to do the special one they are putting more eggs in a single basket to have some interesting end effect and using a secondary or tertiary attribute for it too. (at some level this might always be a fair trade)

The un-trained in the maneuver individual is actually sacrificing an attacks worth of effectiveness to make their next special its not as good of deal but sometimes might be worth it.

Which is kind of what you were talking about? @doctorbadwolf

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The game already lets non-fighters train maneuvers via a feat so we are part of the way there.
Someone asked a question a little while ago about how one might allow other skills to affect combat... And it kicked off a thought i was already developing. The Fighters maneuvers represent things skills might be used for, for instance intimidation could induce any of a number of effects but specifically many of the maneuver results from the fighter kind of pop to mind (like pushing them back or making them bobble their weapon). The end result is an idea that those trained in a maneuver and a skill which might be used to implement that effect can choose to do so by spending an attack action (if they are trained in the maneuver they have superiority dice and the subsequent action gets a bonus based on (perhaps always a d6) and the attribute associated with the skill). If they are not trained in the maneuver or not trained in the skill it takes a skill check and you might still get the attribute bonus. If untrained in either well find a different appropriate skill .

Religion or Diplomacy might enable a Rally for instance.

One of the benefits of this every extra attack benefits the fighter and they are not doing a weak attack to do the special one they are putting more eggs in a single basket to have some interesting end effect and using a secondary or tertiary attribute for it too. (at some level this might always be a fair trade)

The un-trained in the maneuver individual is actually sacrificing an attacks worth of effectiveness to make their next special its not as good of deal but sometimes might be worth it.

Which is kind of what you were talking about? @doctorbadwolf

That could work. Certainly give a little more oomph to skill choices.

 

[Garthanos]

That could work. Certainly give a little more oomph to skill choices.

And let fighters who want it do them a lot of the time even at level 5 ie... wait a trip is fatiguing enough I have to wait an hour... ummm maybe not.