Complete Arcane - Hideous Blow and Aoo

[Dandu]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the Warlock cannot hit full AC reliably. I think it depends upon the opponents the Warlock is pitted against as well as any magic weapon or buffs that may affect the Warlock.

Hitting full AC in order to deal 1d8+3 damage (let's say) to your attack is worse than hitting touch AC for your regular Eldritch Blast damage.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Oh... That's what I'm missing... The idea that regular Eldritch Blast is easier to hit with because it targets Touch AC when Hideous Blow requires the Warlock to hit regular AC.

I knew I was just not getting something about why Hideous Blow was considered to be so weak.

I think I've got it, now.

 

[Dandu]

Oh... That's what I'm missing... The idea that regular Eldritch Blast is easier to hit with because it targets Touch AC when Hideous Blow requires the Warlock to hit regular AC.

I knew I was just not getting something about why Hideous Blow was considered to be so weak.

And Eldritch Glaive so awesome.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Right. Because Eldritch Glaive's damage is Xd6/x2 compared to Hideous Blow's 1d8/19-20x2 + Xd6.

Eldritch Glaive crits look fun!

 

[Runestar]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the Warlock cannot hit full AC reliably. I think it depends upon the opponents the Warlock is pitted against as well as any magic weapon or buffs that may affect the Warlock.

If a swordsage can manage this with his maneuvers, a warlock should be able to do the same thing with hideous blow. Though this requires him to actually get into melee, and waste money on enchanting his weapon (unless he has greater magic weapon).

Even 3/4 bab classes shouldn't be having much trouble hitting with their first attack (given the craptastic ACs in the MM), it is their iteratives which typically suffer. Since warlocks don't bother about iterative attacks, this doesn't apply to them.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If a swordsage can manage this with his maneuvers, a warlock should be able to do the same thing with hideous blow. Though this requires him to actually get into melee, and waste money on enchanting his weapon (unless he has greater magic weapon).

Even 3/4 bab classes shouldn't be having much trouble hitting with their first attack (given the craptastic ACs in the MM), it is their iteratives which typically suffer. Since warlocks don't bother about iterative attacks, this doesn't apply to them.

A Swordsage has free Weapon Focus, lots of boosts to help his to hit chance (like Distracting Ember, for an automatic flanking buddy) and maneuvers that can hit touch AC or leave the foe flatfooted to the attack. Similarly, Clerics have buff spells, Druids have Wildshaping into high str forms, Bards have some buff spells and Inspire Courage, Rogues can reliably get a foe flanked or flatfooted (at least a Rogue that wants to survive fights does)... Generally, all medium BAB classes that are intended or can go melee get some means to make up for their lower BAB compared to a warrior class. What do Warlocks get to help them?

 

[pawsplay]

Oh... That's what I'm missing... The idea that regular Eldritch Blast is easier to hit with because it targets Touch AC when Hideous Blow requires the Warlock to hit regular AC.

I knew I was just not getting something about why Hideous Blow was considered to be so weak.

I think I've got it, now.

Plus, if you crit with Hideous Blow, you get double longspear damage or whatever. If you happen to crit with a regular eldritch blast, you get double your dice. Hideous blow should have just been called hideous nerf, just to be clear about it.

 

[Runestar]

A Swordsage has free Weapon Focus, lots of boosts to help his to hit chance (like Distracting Ember, for an automatic flanking buddy) and maneuvers that can hit touch AC or leave the foe flatfooted to the attack. Similarly, Clerics have buff spells, Druids have Wildshaping into high str forms, Bards have some buff spells and Inspire Courage, Rogues can reliably get a foe flanked or flatfooted (at least a Rogue that wants to survive fights does)... Generally, all medium BAB classes that are intended or can go melee get some means to make up for their lower BAB compared to a warrior class. What do Warlocks get to help them?

Curse your logic...*grumble grumble*

 

[irdeggman]

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the Warlock cannot hit full AC reliably. I think it depends upon the opponents the Warlock is pitted against as well as any magic weapon or buffs that may affect the Warlock.

One thing to note... If I'm right, using Eldritch Glaive provokes an attack of opportunity, too.

Generating the invocation does, but it is a "reach" weapon - which means that it does you no good to generate it when adjacent to an enemy. So unless the enemy threatens with reach you are safe.

Note that it also last until you next turn and you are considered armed until then so you can make AoO also.

Much, much better invocation than Hideous Blow.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Generating the invocation does, but it is a "reach" weapon - which means that it does you no good to generate it when adjacent to an enemy. So unless the enemy threatens with reach you are safe.

That's a solid point, irdeggman. Too bad a warlock cannot invoke a blast shape invocation as part of a move action. If he could, there wouldn't be as much trouble with Hideous Blow (regarding AoO's). I read in one of the unofficial FAQ's that I found that supposedly Rich Baker (author of Complete Arcane) didn't intend that Hideous Blow provoke an Attack of Opportunity, but then the official FAQs from WotC came out at later dates saying that it did. *shrugs*

When our group first started using Complete Arcane, I thought that since a weapon was being used as part of the attack that it provided enough of a threat to allow the warlock to invoke Hideous Blow without incurring an AoO. But, that idea would seem to have ramifications with spells and such from other classes, too, that I haven't examined.

Note that it {Eldritch Glaive} also last until you next turn and you are considered armed until then so you can make AoO also.

Much, much better invocation than Hideous Blow.

I agree that it is a much better invocation. But, we're not using Dragon Magic in our current campaign as freely available material. The material exists, but the powers it contains must be discovered/aquired in game and cannot be chosen by default. So, warlocks do not have free access to Dragon Magic invocations like Eldritch Glaive.

Based upon the discussions that I've had in this thread, I've written a houseruled version of Hideous Blow and posted it in the House Rules secion. I'd welcome your opinion.