Complete Divine Excerpts - good news for Greyhawk fans

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think the Entropomancer is more a villainous PrC myself.

I mean, it's one thing to have a PC use a Sphere of Annihilation. It's quite another to have an evil organization find one, and attempt to use it, while the PC's scramble to find a talisman that can perhaps usurp control.....

It makes an interesting adventure, I'd say!

I don't think I would find it useful (which is why I'd rather just use the shards and other stuff). Players don't like it when they get killed with no save, after all (just like DMs usually hate it when players do stuff like that to their villains.)

Did you read the Shard of Entropy special ability they gain?

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Control Sphere is still a problematic ability (being nearly useless in most campaigns).

True but that was the same for the other "splat" books before 3.5 Now at least they theme these books better to be much more than a collection of feats, spells, magic weapons, and prestige classes. I can live with one or two weak or unmanagable pr-classes in a book that makes players try to make their characters have some kind of theme.

This is a big and obvious error, however. I can't imagine what sort of playtesting reports they got on using artifacts as a balance tool.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I don't think I would find it useful (which is why I'd rather just use the shards and other stuff). Players don't like it when they get killed with no save, after all (just like DMs usually hate it when players do stuff like that to their villains.)

You don't have to kill players with them....but you could kill their characters. ^_^;

In all seriousness, you could run a Sphere of Annihilation centered adventure where nobody in the party dies -- it's usually enough to see it used against a political enemy (for instance), or a town full of innocents. And then you have the other mooks of the Entropomancer to deal with (undead, demons, whatnot), and probably a few save-or-die effects (which by the point the PC's reach them they should have Resurrections to counteract), with perhaps one big showdown where the Sphere is used against them, and an unlucky roll could mean your untimely and irrevocable demise....

I'll agree that it won't be that common, but how often does your party fight Great Wyrm Gold Dragons? This is similar. It's a big, 20-th level, end-of-your-adventuring-life, save-the-world kind of deal.

The artifact isn't being used as a balancing device, as far as I can see. It's a plot device. It doesn't give them a Sphere of Annihilation, but it does give them an ability that has to do with it. In many ways, it may be like some of the lesser Druid or Paladin or Monk powers, as far as 'balance' goes. How many times in the years of playing has your party had to make saves against charms by fey? Or how many times in a week have you been forced to rely on a Paladin's Remove Disease? Or how many times have you had a character killed by old age? They're largely flavor abilities, with little in-game impact. A bit, don't get me wrong -- they're not a null value. But they're not so much there as key elements of balance -- spell list, BAB, HD, saves, these are the bread and butter of balance. The ability to more easily use an artifact is generally a 0.1 value -- you're not expected to use it often, and even when you do, it won't be phenominally useful.

[In addition, this works excellently for my PS campaign, where the deposed Sinkers are trying to take vengeance against the city of Sigil; a Sphere of Annihilation may just be potent enough to take out the Lady of Pain, they may think.......]

 

[Derulbaskul]

I get the Feeling that it would have been more accurate calling CD Faithes of Oeorth

Only if whoever wrote the title is completely unable to spell....

 

[MerricB]

Given Libris Mortis, that could be arranged.

Cheers!

 

[dargoth3]

Only if whoever wrote the title is completely unable to spell....

I havent been able to Spell since Microsoft started including Spell Checkers on their office products

 

[Olive]

Yes, but not just fight them...also to interact with them, role-play with them. I have never liked the tendency for DM's to play gods as if they can do anything and can't be harmed by even the toughest of PCs. Mythology and other fiction is replete with stories about mortals fighting, outsmarting or in other ways besting the gods, stats and abilities are an effective and fair way to make that a (remote) possibility.

This is totally, totally true. Nicely put.

I also, following Kamakazi Midget's lead, give my gods salient divine abilities as a matter of course, as it helps me understand what they abilities of the god are, and how they interact with their followers, what legends exist etc.

 

[Talmun]

This is totally, totally true. Nicely put.

Thank you, thank you very much, I was starting to feel a little alone on this.

 

[MerricB]

Thank you, thank you very much, I was starting to feel a little alone on this.

I think having stats for deities is a good idea; though I don't use them (much), there are times when it is appropriate, and there are groups that will use them a lot more than I will!

I'm sure a lot of the problems with the deity stats has come from the confused focus of the books where they appear. If you have one book with information on the deities actually appearing in game, and another book that only details their influence on the game, then things would be better.

Cheers!

 

[Derulbaskul]

(snip) I'm sure a lot of the problems with the deity stats has come from the confused focus of the books where they appear. If you have one book with information on the deities actually appearing in game, and another book that only details their influence on the game, then things would be better.

That makes sense except that I think the book of stats would sell far fewer copies than the book that provided information that could be used in a game.

Actually, there is a certain irony that the web enhancement for FR's Faiths & Pantheons contains as much, if not more, useful information than the book itself.

IMO, divine stats should be reduced to a rank and explanations of the power and authority that a deity can exercise both within and without its portfolio(s). This would be useful in a normal game, unlike the current divine stats, because clashes between and among deities could be played out and the influence of the PCs (a la Planescape's rules that belief equals reality) could then make a difference in divine "turf wars".

The current stats are best suited for a computer game where the ultimate boss monster is Bane or similar. I don't think most DMs run their games in this manner....

Cheers
D

 

[MerricB]

That makes sense except that I think the book of stats would sell far fewer copies than the book that provided information that could be used in a game.

Indeed. However, how well did Dt&Dg sell when 90% of its content was in the stats? There's also the question of "would it sell enough copies?" We know that the Forgotten Realms books don't sell to 100% of the audience, nor do the Complete series... but they still get made.

The problem with divine power in-game was exacerbated by the inferior nature of DotF, of course. With BoVD and (especially) BoED, and now CD, I think that the impact of deities on a game can really be enhanced, with plenty of aid for the players and DMs.

Cheers!